Re: GAS-L: Internal Combustion with Producer Gas

[Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net>]

Prof. Parikh

Thank you for the clear explanation. Experimentation in flame ignition may
be a valid direction of investigation to over come the knocking
difficulties inherent in present state of the art retro fits.

On the other hand -- if I needed to convert -- say a Cummins 250 (that is
the old truck motor -- natural aspiration -- very tough -- rated 250 HP --
very common in all "scrap" yards in North America) -- I would be lowering
compression to 12:1 and following your advice -- based on your practical
experience in this matter.

I also would calculate on derating that same motor from 250 HP to 125 HP.

In other words -- a very strong and reliable 100 kwh power plant for very
low price -- that would run for a very long time.

Prof. Parikh -- where could I find a gasifier -- affordable by 3rd world
standards -- for the 80% producer gas needed for this 100kwh plant?

I have been checking current state of the art suppliers -- prices are from
(Quoting!)

"For a rough estimate, a system
retrofit might vary between $800 and 
$1900 per kW depending upon what needs
to be provided as part of the quote"

While this may be good pricing for the modern industrialized nations it is
like reaching to touch the moon for the rest of this planet!

I know India is operating this technology at these sizes on a daily basis.
Surely they are not making these kinds of capital investments to do it??

We would have a hard time convincing an operation here to spend $50,000 US
on such a device -- never mind $190,000!!

And to be quite honest -- I can't imagine it costing even close to 50K to
build such a device! 

Gasification will remain an untouchable esoteric as long as prices are in
those ranges!

The rice producer in the example I posted spends $5000 per month in diesel
(at $1.98 per gallon) to operate. But that is only when he is producing
product!

When business gets slow -- he stops spending for diesel!

The lowest interest rate available here is 13% and the more common rate is
18%!! for a 3rd world country -- Belize is favored with low rates! Our
neighbors are often paying much more!

So estimating a $100,000 price tag -- that would be $13,000 (minimum!!) per
year interest alone!

If the producer is operating 3 months -- his fuel cost savings would not
even pay the interest!!

Now -- that is where gasification becomes a total failure and a waste of
everyone's time!

It is a technology of no value to 1st world countries with their cheap
power rates -- and far to expensive for 3rd world countries with expensive
rates.

I believe that problem must be confronted and solved before we need worry
more about retrofitting diesels to burn producer gas.

That problem being a reasonably priced gasifier!

Now -- how is India managing this??

Peter/Belize

 

At 05:02 PM 5/5/00 +0530, you wrote:
>Sorry there are some corrections in the passage below -- typographical
>errors!! 
>
>READ IT AS BELOW: THE CAPITAL WORDS/LETTERS ARE THE CORRECTIONS:
>
>> 
>> Mr. Peter Singfield and all
>> 
>> Thanks for your mail. When a pilot spray is used there are reasons for
>> NOT knocking even at high compression ratios because 
>> (a) diesel ENGINE by itself has a lot of excess air provision 
>> (b) due to pilot spray the amount of energy input through gas is only
>>     about 75-80% (generally). 
>> 
>> Due to these two factors the pre-mixed mixture is extremely lean. Moreover
>> ignition from pilot spray would mean multi-point ignition and hence much
>> reduced maximum flame travel. All these factors counter the knocking
>> tendency. All the same even in dual-fuel engine knocking has been reported
>> at high loads and low pilot spray quantities. In fact dual-fuel operation
>> gets bracketed between the lean misfire limit and the rich knocking limit
>> (which also is in fact lean). This means there is a bracket to the minimum
>> and maximum load for which dual-fuel operation can be carried out. An
>> extension to this logic is that even 17 as a compression ratio can be used
>> but the richness of the pre-mixed mixture need to be limited thereby
>> limiting the max load for load-fuel operation. I hope this clarifies what
>> I mentioned in my previous mail.
>> 
>> Prof. Parikh
>> 
>>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~
>> Prof. (Mrs.) P.P.Parikh          Phone  Office : 5723496, 5767548 
>> Dept. of Mechanical Engg.                        5722545 Ext. 7548 / 8385 
>> I.I.T. Bombay				Home   : 5704646 	
>> Mumbai 400 076 INDIA		 Fax	Office : 5723496, 5723480
>> 		
>>                     email : parikh@me.iitb.ernet.in    			   
>>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> 
>> On Thu, 4 May 2000, Peter Singfield wrote:
>> 
>> > Thank you Mrs Parikh;
>> > 
>> > I quoted you poorly. You had mentioned 12:1 at the best upper level
due to
>> > knocking beyond that range. Thank you for supplying the upper limit --
14/15:1
>> > 
>> > Wish I was at your facilities in India -- I am sure with a little fine
>> > tuning -- that can be over come -- and for an economic investment.
>> > 
>> > >Even other wise over a period of operation
>> > >deposits could be formed bue to lub-oil burning.
>> > 
>> > Yes -- possible -- but then consider -- it doesn't happen when using
diesel
>> > fuel injection ignition!
>> > 
>> > When one considers this -- ????
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Peter Singfield
>> > COROGEN
>> > Executive Director
>> > Xaibe Village
>> > Corozal District
>> > Belize, Central America
>> > Tel 501-4-35213
>> > E-mail: snkm@btl.net
>> > 
>> > 
>> > At 03:07 PM 5/4/00 +0530, you wrote:
>> > >Spark ignition engines definitely knock at compression ratios beyond
>> > >14/15. May be deposits formed due to contaminants provide preignition
>> > >spots and cause knocking! Even other wise over a period of operation
>> > >deposits could be formed bue to lub-oil burning. The fact is the engine
>> > >knocks!
>> > >Mrs Parikh
>> > >
>> >
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> > ~~~~
>> > >Prof. (Mrs.) P.P.Parikh          Phone  Office : 5723496, 5767548 
>> > >Dept. of Mechanical Engg.                        5722545 Ext. 7548 /
8385 
>> > >I.I.T. Bombay				Home   : 5704646 	
>> > >Mumbai 400 076 INDIA		 Fax	Office : 5723496, 5723480
>> > >		
>> > >                    email : parikh@me.iitb.ernet.in    			   
>> >
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> > >
>> > >On Wed, 3 May 2000, Peter Singfield wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Tom;
>> > >> 
>> > >> Bare with me here -- 
>> > 
>> > snipped*********************
>> > The Gasification List is sponsored by
>> > USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>> > and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>> > Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>> > http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>> > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>> > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>> > 
>> 
>> The Gasification List is sponsored by
>> USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>> and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>> Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>> 
>
>The Gasification List is sponsored by
>USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml