GAS-L: Gas "topping" turbines

[Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net>]

At 09:50 PM 1/26/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>Joseph, and List,
>
>If you want to learn about large scale producer gas fired large combustion
>turbines (CT), check out:
>http://www.gasification.org/98GTC/Gtc00190.pdf
>http://www.gasification.org/98GTC/Gtc00220.pdf
>http://www.gasification.org/gtc99150.pdf
>This is syngas from coal and oil.
> 
>These links might be of interested as well if you are looking for smaller
>scale turbines for biomass producer gas. The principles remain.
>
>In any case, what you need to look for are turbines fit to burn Low Caloric
>Value gas. In case of gasturbines burning low CV gas is not quite as easy as
>it may sound. It is specialized work to arrive at stable flame conditions.
>
>Apart from GE in the US, in Europe Siemens is among the suppliers for larger
>low CV gas fired CT's, in Japan Mitsubishi.
>
>A general list of manufacturers is:
>http://gas-turbines.com/manufa/index.htm
>but is doesn't seem complete.
>
>
>Andries Weststeijn
>
>> ----------


Yes -- and check out the gas cleaning required to do all this when
gasifying biomasses! Truly awesome!

The binary system is all about "topping" the thermodynamic reaction. I will
eventually put an explanation of why that increases over all efficiencies
in that "treatise" I am working on.

I think they have lost touch with reality to use a gas turbine as the
topping device. For that scale of project -- they could be using high
quality steam boilers -- "topping" with a steam turbine -- and then binary
cycling with a refrigerant.

In fact -- in another corner of this world they are doing just that -- but
in a most interesting way. It is called the Kalina Cycle -- water and ammonia.

Search "Kalina Cycle"

You can poke around:

http://doegeothermal.inel.gov/fy95/energy/engind.htm

The big advantage to steam topping rather than gas turbine topping is of
course -- no fuel conditioning and loss of btu value inherent in the
cleaning process. (at least 10% gone right there!!)

About topping -- a quick example.

Steam at 5000 psia and 1600 F = 1794.5 btu

Steam at 20 psia and 400 F =    1239.2 btu

Easy extraction at top mechanical efficiencies using steam turbine of 553.3
btu's per pound of steam to mechanical energy. Represents 30% of the total
heat charge invested. Much simpler turbine design -- much simpler!!

Now the exhaust from this turbine is fed to a refrigerant boiler -- where
we can recover another good amount of btu's -- get the drift??

Using a dual refrigerant cycle -- one to extract from 400 to 212 -- and the
other (much lower boiling point -- say propane rather than butane) -- to
extract the latent heat from condensing at 212.

Then yes -- you break the 50% barrier.

And alos get rid of those huge condensers to blow the heat to the skies!

Andries, at the plant you are working at -- do they use Gas Turbines?? And
if so -- as sole device or as a "topping" device??

Peter / Belize

At 09:50 PM 1/26/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>Joseph, and List,
>
>If you want to learn about large scale producer gas fired large combustion
>turbines (CT), check out:
>http://www.gasification.org/98GTC/Gtc00190.pdf
>http://www.gasification.org/98GTC/Gtc00220.pdf
>http://www.gasification.org/gtc99150.pdf
>This is syngas from coal and oil.
> 
>These links might be of interested as well if you are looking for smaller
>scale turbines for biomass producer gas. The principles remain.
>
>In any case, what you need to look for are turbines fit to burn Low Caloric
>Value gas. In case of gasturbines burning low CV gas is not quite as easy as
>it may sound. It is specialized work to arrive at stable flame conditions.
>
>Apart from GE in the US, in Europe Siemens is among the suppliers for larger
>low CV gas fired CT's, in Japan Mitsubishi.
>
>A general list of manufacturers is:
>http://gas-turbines.com/manufa/index.htm
>but is doesn't seem complete.
>
>
>Andries Weststeijn
>
>> ----------
>> Van: 	Joseph FONIO[SMTP:joseph.fonio@oser.net]
>> Antwoord naar: 	gasification@crest.org
>> Verzonden: 	vrijdag 26 januari 2001 11:57
>> Aan: 	gasification@crest.org
>> Onderwerp: 	GAS-L: Gas turbines
>> 
>> Hello everybody at the gasification list,
>> 
>> I have heard about gas turbines used with gasification units, but I do not
>> know any reference of it. Could someone give me examples of gasification
>> plants using the producer gas in gas turbines ? Are there companies that
>> develop (or sell) this kind of technologies ?
>> 
>> Thank you.
>> 
>> Joseph Fonio
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------
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>> 317 rue de la Garenne
>> 92 741 Nanterre Cedex
>> France
>> tel : (33).1.55.66.03.60
>> fax : (33).1.55.66.03.66
>> visit our web site :
>> http://www.oser.net
>> ----------------------------------------
>> 
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>> 
>The Gasification List is sponsored by
>USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
>Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>http://www.nrel.gov/bioam/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
The Gasification List is sponsored by
USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com

Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
http://www.nrel.gov/bioam/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml