Re: GAS-L: Conquest of the Land Through Seven Thousand Years

[Reedtb2@cs.com]

Dear Gasification:

This has been a very interesting exchange.  

However, I see no mention of gasification here and eventually we'll turn off 
those who are PARTICULARLY interested in gasification, rather than the large 
aspects of using biomass energy.  

I suggest that we all move our more general discussions (global warming, land 
destruction, ...) to BIOENERGY@CREST.ORG.  Those who want to work on the big 
picture should be sure to be subscribed there.  Those of us solving the 
problems of gasification should limit the discussion at this site to that 
subject.

I'll forward this to Tom Miles and see if he agrees.  

TOM REED                            GASIFICATION ADMINISTRATOR

In a message dated 1/25/01 11:54:10 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
keith@journeytoforever.org writes:


> I'm sorry Peter, I don't share your view on these matters. I don't 
> think we've failed as you say. During the 70s and 80s, working as a 
> journalist specialising in Third World issues, I found it very 
> difficult not to have a dark view of the world and of the future, and 
> of human nature. But it changed over time, and not at all through 
> turning my back on all the problems and pretending they weren't 
> there, no rose-tinted specs involved. I'm all too aware of the issues 
> we face, but I see challenge, not failure, and everywhere I see 
> people rising to meet the challenge.
>
> I don't agree with this at all:
>
> >The "me" generation. No respect for either their ancestors or
> >their descendants. No animal living in "paradise" could ever accomplish
> >this level of species self extermination.It takes good old human "know-how"
> >to accomplish this. That is to the point where males and females of the
> >species no longer procreate because it is to "expensive" and interferes
> >with their personal quest -- materialism -- the worst "ism" of them all.
>
> If you seek evidence of that, of course you'll find it, but there's a 
> lot more to be found too. The "law of the jungle", the ruthless 
> competition, the survival of the "fittest" - that's all there if you 
> seek it. But the real law of the jungle, and of nature as a whole, 
> including us and our societies, is not competition, it's symbiosis: 
> 95% cooperation, 5% competition. We're not primarily selfish, 
> me-centred, materialistic. We do behave that way (as we're encouraged 
> to), but not only that way, Friedmann and Thatcher to the contrary. 
> Greed is not our main drive - and it's certainly not a "good".
>
> Towards the end of the Thatcherite era, some British psychologists 
> performed a series of studies on this. They were well-designed, 
> well-controlled studies, and they found that a majority of people 
> would actually knowingly suffer loss in order that someone else would 
> have a good opinion of them - even someone they didn't know and would 
> never see. The perception of a "good opinion" was that it would arise 
> from a display of generosity, altruism, a willingness to share and 
> forego, not from "winning", self-assertion or greed. (I'm sorry that 
> I don't have references for that now, but it's not the only such 
> work.) That's just as easy to prove as the "law" of "me", and there's 
> at least as much evidence of it to be seen as of greed and narrow 
> materialism.
>
> You seem to see the last 30 years as marking the growth of the "me" 
> generation. But look at the growth of environmental awareness in the 
> last 30 years, and of action, and accomplishment. The kids are all 
> red-hot environmentalists now, and they blackmail their parents about 
> it. That's NEW!
>
> Many people (maybe you too?) have come to see humanity as a scourge, 
> a sort of planetary cancer, and the sooner we wipe ourselves out the 
> better for the rest of the biosphere. Yet most people, now and 
> throughout the past, live in harmony with nature, following nature's 
> ways. Most of them are very good at it, when they're allowed to be. 
> That too is there to be seen. Perhaps more visible, however, is the 
> environmental degradation caused by traditional peoples - or rather 
> caused by poverty, usually presented as the result of scarcity driven 
> by overpopulation, but actually caused by an inequitable economic 
> system: wealth extraction causes poverty.
>
> The state of mind you describe doesn't fit most people, though it 
> might seem to. It does fit corporations though (sure, not all of 
> them, but the majority). Our mistake is in believing that humans have 
> the nature of corporations. Our great mistake is in thinking 
> corporations have human natures, and treating them accordingly. 
> Corporations are the ones that promote these ideas of human greed and 
> materialism, for obvious reasons, with the (kept) media a willing 
> ally, as with the (kept) governments. When we learn to stop treating 
> corporations as ordinary members of the community and to subject them 
> to some essential controls, we will have gone a long way towards 
> meeting the challenges that now threaten our future and our world.
>
> One thing that is neither corporate nor kept is the Internet. The 
> level of cooperation, the kindness and generosity Internet groups 
> show to newcomers and each other, the immense trouble people - many 
> people - will go to, without pay or reward, to make better resources 
> available and to help people they don't even know, all expose the 
> "marketplace" and the idea that people are most motivated by greed 
> and self-interest as the nonsense it always was.
>
> The levels of maturity, fairness and responsibility so many Internet 
> groups demonstrate in their self-administration and general conduct 
> is a strong counter to the idea that communities need nannying 
> authorities to tell them what to do. Most significant: children love 
> the Internet. So do schools.
>
> But only about 2% of the world's people are connected - two billion 
> people on the planet have never even used a telephone. And the gap is 
> growing. Most Internet users are young, white, rich, Western, and 
> male. The poor, the deprived, and especially the Third World are 
> being left behind in altogether new ways which could prove critical.
>
> But statistics are both revealing and deceptive, perhaps nowhere more 
> so than with the Internet. For instance, of the 10 most common search 
> terms used by web surfers in 1999, most popular was "sex". Seven of 
> the 10 were searches for entertainment. Get the picture? - young, 
> white, rich, and male. But what that picture doesn't show is that the 
> 4th most popular search was for the World Wildlife Fund, and No. 9 
> was Poetry, and that's much more significant.
>
> The same applies to how people use the Internet. Despite the growing 
> gap, computers and the Internet are bringing new capabilities and 
> effectiveness to the groups and individuals fighting poverty, hunger, 
> environmental degradation, exploitation and injustice on every front.
>
> It changes the picture. It doesn't make the digital gap any less 
> severe, but in one sense all that means is that people who didn't 
> have something before it existed still don't have it, which doesn't 
> change their situation.
>
> "Our priorities are hygiene, sanitation, safe drinking water," said a 
> health worker in Nepal. "How is having access to the Internet going 
> to change that?"
>
> In fact, others who do have Internet access are using it for exactly 
> these purposes: to improve hygiene, sanitation and drinking water in 
> the Third World.
>
> The last millennium ended with war, cruelty, poverty, hunger, 
> injustice, inequality, exploitation, pollution, environmental 
> destruction, mass extinction, global warming, a hole in the sky - and 
> the Internet, its saving grace. And human nature, "being what it is"? 
> That's our saving grace.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Keith Addison
>
>
> >At 06:29 AM 1/25/2001 +0900, you wrote:
> > >They're two different books Peter.
> > >
> > >http://soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010119lowdermilk.usda/cls.html
> > >Lowdermilk: Conquest of the Land through Seven Thousand Years
> > >
> > >
> http://soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010113topsoilandciv/010113topsoil.toc.
> >html
> > >Dale & Carter: Topsoil and Civilization
> > >
> > >Best wishes
> > >
> > >Keith
> > >
> >
> >Right Keith -- I have just finished downloading the second -- Dale & Carter
> >-- that ends with this paragraph:
> >
> >"Since 1945, the United States has been generally recognized as the
> >economic leader of the free world. This leadership is not something
> >to be taken lightly. To retain this position as world leader, this
> >nation must assume some of the responsibilities of leadership, and
> >the most important responsibility that should be assumed is helping
> >the more backward countries raise the standard of living of their
> >people. It is evident that the most effective, and probably the only
> >way we can do so is to help them develop and conserve their natural
> >resources. This is one of the great challenges confronting us. If we
> >fail to meet this challenge effectively, the next generations may
> >witness the decline of civilization over all the world. To meet the
> >world-wide challenge effectively, we, the people of the United
> >States, must first put our own house in order."
> >
> >Copyright 1955 by the University of Oklahoma Press -- so words written
> >before 1955!
> >
> >Of course -- the time for this style of action has already come -- and
> >already gone.
> >
> >Seems we failed the test of global survival. Well, there is always the next
> >turn of the wheel. But unless we can some how manage to change human nature
> >-- it certainly will be just another repeat of this one -- and Nature alone
> >knows how many times we have already done this in the past.
> >
> >Man bites into the apple of "knowledge" forcing expulsion from the paradise
> >of instinctual existence. Soon after becomes corrupted with the chase for
> >material goods.
> >
> >Bang -- one big ending. Followed by a long period of a return to paradise.
> >
> >This is the theme of our "Bible". One can assume paradise along the lines
> >described in one book that has always impressed me with its message -- that
> >being planet of the apes.
> >
> >Collapse of over specialized human society results in a devolutionary
> >tendency in the survivors. That being a blithering idiot stands a better
> >chance of surviving long enough to breed with another blithering idiot --
> >and the long march starts again.
> >
> >Or do you believe that a modern "successful" man can survive "grubbing" for
> >bugs and roots -- plus find a modern woman doing the same -- and they both
> >settle down to raise a family?
> >
> >This is the reason for those slow "come-backs" after ice-ages -- etc. We
> >develop into "moderns" very slowly as natural selection again favors the
> >more aggressive traits of human nature -- till we have bred  again the
> >present example of human evolution. To be "saved" we would have to "lose"
> >those genetic traits. So that one turn of the wheel the human race does not
> >invent concepts such a Communism or Capitalism -- or any "ism" at all!
> >
> >The only person we are kidding is ourselves.
> >
> >Our generation was the one born to lose it all ---- the one that never
> >admits to an ending -- yet starting from a subconscious level lives only
> >for itself. The "me" generation. No respect for either their ancestors or
> >their descendants. No animal living in "paradise" could ever accomplish
> >this level of species self extermination.It takes good old human "know-how"
> >to accomplish this. That is to the point where males and females of the
> >species no longer procreate because it is to "expensive" and interferes
> >with their personal quest -- materialism -- the worst "ism" of them all.
> >
> >Welcome to this new age of man -------------
> >
> >
> >However -- from this last turn of the wheel -- we had an interesting twist
> >-- ever hear of Shangri-la. The lost city of scientists in the Himalayas,
> >from the mists of time?? The Book -- Lost Horizon -- by Hilton??
> >
> >This was based on his life's research of such a city of man -- but he could
> >never accumulate enough evidence to "publish" -- so simply produced this
> >work of "Fiction" instead.
> >
> >It is based on the story of the ancient "osiriana-maya" that showed up in
> >the Himalayas after the last ice age -- having migrated there from parts
> >unknown. A group of sages -- keepers of the Cosmic Sciences.
> >
> >So -- for my part -- I am not just going to roll over to mass opinion (you
> >know -- "It Can't Happen HERE!!") and expire gracefully in my supposed
> >"ignorance". Not when the Maya mountains -- one of the worlds most
> >geographically stable areas, is my close neighbor -- just as good as the
> >Himalayas for surviving.
> >
> >There I can also meet Maya that still live by subsistence agriculture --
> >and still remember how to make machetes from stone.
> >
> >The rest of you sit and hope -- "its just another false alarm". Maybe this
> >time -- who really knows -- but we can definitely say the mold is cast --
> >the pattern is set -- we have gone past the point of turning back. Or
> >rather -- most have -- I believe in insurance -- I believe gracious living
> >can continue - even without any modern conveniences. And especially - even
> >without "power"!
> >
> >These same Maya hear in Belize -- living in the most primitive conditions
> >-- still keep their calendar and the amazing almanac that is woven within
> >it. They know and knew 1000's of years ago -- the orbit of Mercury to
> >within seconds. They prophesied 100 year droughts. There science was to
> >encourage proper survival on man kind with his planet.
> >
> >Their calendar ends 2012.
> >
> >Of course -- I am not suggesting some superstitious pap -- merely pointing
> >out that one of oldest system of science -- the Mayan calendar -- is
> >predicting global climatic change of the most adverse nature based on
> >observation of weather -- and recording of these observations -- since 3337
> >BC.
> >
> >By the way -- still the most "accurate" calendar of all.
> >
> >So -- barring supernatural events -- such as seeing into the future --
> >their "ending" can only be based on an observable natural ryhme over an
> >extended period of time. The writing and counting of the Maya here in
> >Central America is the same at the writing of the ancient "Naga-Maya" of
> >the Himalayas. (Yes -- Hilton's city is know to have existed in all
> >certainty -- it is proving the length of existence that was the problem to
> >publishing)
> >
> >So it is quite possible that the geophysical data of these Maya here in
> >Central America work with goes far beyond 3337.
> >
> >If one looks at our present circumstances from their perspective -- then it
> >is most definitely not CO2 triggering global warming.
> >
> >What would be amazing then -- if this does turn out accurate -- is that a
> >well portioned Time Capsule warning has been ignored by this modern world.
> >
> >What this world needed to do 30 years ago was "Chill-out".
> >
> >Instead -- "Full Speed Ahead -- and D**n The Torpedoes!"
> >
> >Right -- sure formula to success.
> >
> >Granted -- no matter the reason -- not much can be accomplished at this
> >late date.
> >
> >One last point. The great city that survived the 100 years drought (about
> >1000 to 1100 AD) we call the ruins of today -- "Caracol". It had a
> >population greater than 200,000 people -- was totally self sufficient in
> >everything -- and unearthing the ruins is demonstrating a large "upper"
> >class that lived better than the romans in their prime -- which I
> >personally consider better than most of us have today.
> >
> >This City is situated right in the most perfect area of the Maya mountains
> >-- here in Belize -- I know well the road to get there.
> >
> >Do we have time to get the next Shangrila ready?? So that just maybe this
> >time a capsule of information can be developed that will properly warn our
> >distant future descendants of man -- what can be in store for them??
> >
> >Scientifically -- there is nothing to stop us from doing it.
> >
> >I believe the 3337 BC date represents when the Maya colonized here.
> >
> >Wonder if Bill Gates would be interested ----
> >
> >Peter Singfield / Belize
> >The Gasification List is sponsored by
> >USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
> >and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
> >