Re: GAS-L: Fuel Cells -- ethanol -- reforming natural gas

[Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net>]

>At 03:44 AM 1/13/2002 +0100, you wrote:

Mr. Cat of nine tails -- notice the "you" in the "you wrote:" above.

>On Sunday 13 January 2002 02:10, Greg and April wrote:

Now -- notice how it is supposed to be done -- as in the example above.

I am guessing -- but think this message is from Arnt?? But hard to tell
when "you" only is in the field.

Where is that cat of nine tails when one really needs it??

(All about throwing stones when living in glass house)

On to the next part to this reply:

>..nope.  You loop-fire the syngas in the fuel cell to make electricity 
>and store that in the flywheels.  If you want an otto-engine fuel, make 
>MBTE, or diesel oil for diesel engines, and lose 2/3-3/4 of the energy.
>

OK -- now i see it is from Arnt (recognize his writing style) -- and also
-- notice his signature below.

Arnt -- we covered this in depth a short while back -- at least I posted
"in-depth" regarding this technology a short while back. 

All planned fuel cell cars work on the basis of converting a "fuel" to
synthesis gas on board the car -- as part of the "drive" package.

The question here is what fuel to start with -- to gasify into synthesis gas.

Some say "methanol"

Some say "synthetic diesel"

Some say "ethanol"

Some say "gasoline"

Some say "compressed natural gas"

I suggested that using high pressure -- super critical water -- for
specialized "steam-reforming" the base fuel could be biomass.

I used the example of the super critical water reactor doing exactly that
with high moisture bagasse in a Hawaii research project.

Why?? Because it can be done so compactly!!

Knowing you -- probably got a design for a biomass combustion style
gasifier that can be fitted where present car's catalytic converters go
(which is how they are now doing it) to produce the "given" requirement of
50 kw power that has been agreed on as required for prime motivation of a
passenger car.

And not some monster combustion gasifier that you must tow on trailer
behind the vehicle -- that feeds synthesis gas to your fuel cell by pipe line!

If so -- please show us it??

The super critical water reformer would be the size of the presently
existing catalytic converter stuck on the bottom of a modern car -- but you
would still need the trunk full of sawdust to get anywhere.

And that is why the discussion is focused on liquid fuels --

To put a biomass slant on it.

Ethanol by distillation of food biomasses.

Methanol by reforming any biomass

Or -- synthetic diesel.

A "stationary" power plant is another deal all together different.

I realize you are suggesting "service" stations using prime movers powered
by fuel cells to charge flywheels to operate passenger vehicles.

I would be interested in knowing how far you could go -- at the "given"
power of 50 kw -- between "wind-ups"??

Also -- when you state efficiencies of synthesis gas in powering fuel cells. 

Where goes the CO???

Mind you -- I also published to this list a while back a most interesting
concept of transforming C0 to H2 using a liquid tin bath. And suggested
that would solve the efficiency losses involved with using synthesis gas to
run a fuel cell.

Or am I missing something here -- and CO propels a fuel cell??

In power values -- what percentage of synthesis gas is H2 and what
percentage is CO -- and how do you get 90% efficiencies??

I believe Tom Reed posted that information in the past.

Plus -- just what are you doing with the large amount of partial combustion
heat that is produced with your gasifier which is zilch to increasing fuel
cell output??  Attaching and ORC device?? Heating the "service" station and
counting it also as "power" for your over all efficiencies???

Time to put meat to those claims Arnt --- check out the appended -- about
how at least some people are being realistic in this same approach -- note
the efficiency figures -- and tell me why you can do so much better using
synthesis gas from coal gasification -- and get "CAVM" so excited!!

Suggesting this can be done with a gasifier making synthesis gas from coal
to propel a fuel cell -- to charge a flywheel to get power to the back
wheels -- driving your vehicle down the road -- unless you use a liquid tim
metal C0 to H2 reformer and attach an OCR to recover heat -- your going to
get poor over all efficiencies! 

Flywheels or no flywheels!

Peter/Belize

****************refs 1************

(Blurb from past postings on this subject -- re: heat recovery from fuel
cells)

What is notable is the way it generates power. Rather than burning fuel to
turn a generator, it electrochemically converts natural gas directly into
electrical current. It then uses heat produced by this process to run a
turbine, generating even more electricity. The result is a system of
unprecedented efficiency that produces little in the way of pollution. 

Siemens Westinghouse calls it a solid oxide fuel cell/gas turbine hybrid.
Mark Williams of the National Energy Technology Laboratory calls it
"remarkable." 

"As far as I know, there's no device that can match it," said Williams, who
heads fuel cell development at the lab's Strategic Center for Natural Gas.
"It's got incredible efficiency," converting almost 60 percent of the
energy in natural gas into electricity, compared with the 35 percent
typical of conventional power plants. "It produces half the carbon dioxide
[of a conventional plant] and has no regulated emissions." 

*****************ref 2*****************

(Arnt's "claims")

..diverting todays coal thru a gasifier + fuel cell loop process, will 
top out at 93% efficiency without extra heat supply.  Jack Bitterly's 
flywheels are now in use for spacecraft attitude control and has a 96% 
charge cycle efficiency, afaik.  Search for '"Jack Bitterly" + american 
+ flywheel'.

..my allegation: we can keep 15 billion people driving for 400 years.  
No need for WWIII, Noch Eine Endloesung, Ebola, Festung Europa, 
AIDS, nukes, or Festung Amerika.  And I, I get _stinking_ rich.

****************ref 3*****************

(CAVM gets excited!)

From: CAVM@aol.com
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 21:04:15 EST
To: gasification@crest.org
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Fuel Cells -- ethanol -- reforming natural gas

In a message dated 1/12/2002 7:12:54 PM Central Standard Time, 
gregandapril@earthlink.net writes:

<< > ..actually, I prefer syngas here.  Which we can make cheaper than
 > methanol.  ;-)
 >
 That is probably true, and easier to make as well, but, I don't see a simple
 way of storing syngas for future use, I don't think that syngas has the
 energy density for real storage efficeny, does it?
 
 Gr >>

Greg,  If syn gas from coal, or whatever source, can be used in place of 
methanol, it would be a big hit in rural areas where we have ready access to 
coal and other biomass.  Can you give a Reader's Digest version of how this 
might work?

Neal

****************ref 4***************

(From past posting -- convering C0 to H2)

Ok -- just typing the details -- as explained from the Alchemix site --
which is a graphic only -- no way to copy and paste.

Pure hydrogen (H2) is produced in a high temperature environment when water
(steam) is exposed to molten tin.

The oxygen in steam bonds with the tin to form tin oxide thus freeing the
hydrogen gas from the water molecule.

High temperature causes this reaction to occur very rapidly.

2(H20) + Sn = SnO2 + 2(H2)

The ability to reform tin from tin oxide is essential to the economic
production of hydrogen.

The transformation is achieved by sparging carbon monoxide (CO) through the
molten tin oxide. Since oxygen atoms are more strongly attracted to the CO
molecule than to the tin oxide molecule, the oxygen is stripped away from
the tin oxide transforming it back into pure tin.



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