Re: GAS-L: Fuel Cells -- ethanol -- reforming natural gas

[Arnt Karlsen <arnt@c2i.net>]

On Sunday 13 January 2002 04:59, Peter Singfield wrote:

<..snipped raw material for the e-mail set-up guide.  ;-) >

> On to the next part to this reply:
> >..nope.  You loop-fire the syngas in the fuel cell to make
> > electricity and store that in the flywheels.  If you want an
> > otto-engine fuel, make MBTE, or diesel oil for diesel engines, and
> > lose 2/3-3/4 of the energy.
>
> OK -- now i see it is from Arnt (recognize his writing style) -- and
> also -- notice his signature below.
>
> Arnt -- we covered this in depth a short while back -- at least I
> posted "in-depth" regarding this technology a short while back.
>
> All planned fuel cell cars work on the basis of converting a "fuel"
> to synthesis gas on board the car -- as part of the "drive" package.
>
> The question here is what fuel to start with -- to gasify into
> synthesis gas.
>
> Some say "methanol"
>
> Some say "synthetic diesel"
>
> Some say "ethanol"
>
> Some say "gasoline"
>
> Some say "compressed natural gas"

..and I say "coal and MSW".  ;-)

> I suggested that using high pressure -- super critical water -- for
> specialized "steam-reforming" the base fuel could be biomass.
>
> I used the example of the super critical water reactor doing exactly
> that with high moisture bagasse in a Hawaii research project.
>
> Why?? Because it can be done so compactly!!

...and _less_ efficiently.  Engineering is compromizing, you can have 
the fuel cells cheaply, compactly, efficiently, and, eventually.  The 
Otto engine took 120 years to perfect to todays standards.

..compare auto engine efficiencies with big heavy irons like the 
Wartsila's, or, mmmmm, the Cat's.  ;-)

> Knowing you -- probably got a design for a biomass combustion style
> gasifier that can be fitted where present car's catalytic converters

..  ;-)

> go (which is how they are now doing it) to produce the "given"
> requirement of 50 kw power that has been agreed on as required for
> prime motivation of a passenger car.
>
> And not some monster combustion gasifier that you must tow on trailer
> behind the vehicle -- that feeds synthesis gas to your fuel cell by
> pipe line!

...or monster fuel cell trailer?  Leave both where they belong, 
and plug in your future battery of flywheels, and peel off in 5 minutes.
The flywheels replace all the chemical batteries, which cannot supply 
peel-off juice.

> A "stationary" power plant is another deal all together different.

..mmmmmm.  ;-)

> I realize you are suggesting "service" stations using prime movers
> powered by fuel cells to charge flywheels to operate passenger
> vehicles.

..close, today's gas stations would charge the tomorrow's flywheels 
instead of pumping today's gasoline.  Also possible to do this thru 
induction in your garage and/or parking lot.  :-)

> I would be interested in knowing how far you could go -- at the
> "given" power of 50 kw -- between "wind-ups"??

..Jack Bitterly suggests around 500 miles, in a standard size auto.
Which matches the current gasoline fired auto.  The peeling power is a 
side effect of the set of flywheels being able to receive (and deliver) 
the energy charge in said time.  

..the set of flywheels plus motors, cables and controls should weigh in 
about the same as the systems they replace.  Bitterly's carbon 
flywheels are paired and hung in electromagnetic bearings inside steel? 
vacuum boxes, on charging, they are spun up to ca 120 000 rpm's.
Each pair of wheels can receive and deliver 25 kWe and store 37.5 kWh, 
last time I checked.  
A flywheel pair box is about 50 kgs and some 500x500x250 mm, afair.  
A typical auto setup would be 12-20 sets of flywheels, and an hub motor 
for each (road) wheel.

..at 25-35% efficiency, the gasoline and diesel engines _are_ obsolete.

> Also -- when you state efficiencies of synthesis gas in powering fuel
> cells.
>
> Where goes the CO???

..into the fuel cell.

> Mind you -- I also published to this list a while back a most
> interesting concept of transforming C0 to H2 using a liquid tin bath.
> And suggested that would solve the efficiency losses involved with
> using synthesis gas to run a fuel cell.
>
> Or am I missing something here -- and CO propels a fuel cell??

...along with the H².  Methanol etc needs heating, to break up 
into 2 H² and CO, _before_ combustion can take place.  
We skip that stage, instead we feed the syngas into the fuel cell, 
saving that break-up heat for the gasifier, to make more syngas. 

> In power values -- what percentage of synthesis gas is H2 and what
> percentage is CO -- and how do you get 90% efficiencies??

..looping around 3.5 times.  The gasifier feeds the fuel cell hot 
syngas, the fuel cell feeds the gasifier, heat and CO² and H²O.
The fuel cells needs to yield at least 70% efficiency, to produce 90% 
in a loop with a "93%" gasifier.  Also some hi temp up and down heat 
exhanging involved.

> I believe Tom Reed posted that information in the past.
>
> Plus -- just what are you doing with the large amount of partial
> combustion heat that is produced with your gasifier which is zilch to

..(p)reheating the gasifier thru the the fuel cell.  ;-)

> increasing fuel cell output??  Attaching and ORC device?? Heating the
> "service" station and counting it also as "power" for your over all
> efficiencies???
> 
> Time to put meat to those claims Arnt --- check out the appended --
> about how at least some people are being realistic in this same
> approach -- note the efficiency figures -- and tell me why you can do
> so much better using synthesis gas from coal gasification -- and get
> "CAVM" so excited!!

..simply put, the gasifier + fuel cell loop uses fuel cell heat to yank 
out all coal energy as syngas, and then the produced hot syngas to make 
electricity and heat.  Since we don't get 90% conversion the first time 
around, we try again, and again, and again.  ;-) 

..also, we dont waste heat converting, say, methanol, into syngas. 

..and, why drop discussing dropping propeller mills into 
the Florida Strait?  
The warm what, 50 sq nm Gulf Stream moves at, what 3 knots? ;-)


> ****************refs 1************
>
> (Blurb from past postings on this subject -- re: heat recovery from
> fuel cells)
>
> What is notable is the way it generates power. Rather than burning
> fuel to turn a generator, it electrochemically converts natural gas

...or syngas and _more_ heat...     ;-)

> directly into electrical current. It then uses heat produced by this
> process to run a turbine, generating even more electricity. The
> result is a system of unprecedented efficiency that produces little
> in the way of pollution.
>
> Siemens Westinghouse calls it a solid oxide fuel cell/gas turbine
> hybrid. Mark Williams of the National Energy Technology Laboratory
> calls it "remarkable."
>
> "As far as I know, there's no device that can match it," said
> Williams, who heads fuel cell development at the lab's Strategic
> Center for Natural Gas. "It's got incredible efficiency," converting
> almost 60 percent of the energy in natural gas into electricity,

...10 to 20 to 30 more %'s to go...  ;-)

> compared with the 35 percent typical of conventional power plants.
> "It produces half the carbon dioxide [of a conventional plant] and
> has no regulated emissions."
>
> *****************ref 2*****************
>
> (Arnt's "claims")
>
> ..diverting todays coal thru a gasifier + fuel cell loop process,
> will top out at 93% efficiency without extra heat supply.  Jack
> Bitterly's flywheels are now in use for spacecraft attitude control
> and has a 96% charge cycle efficiency, afaik.  Search for '"Jack
> Bitterly" + american + flywheel'.
>
> ..my allegation: we can keep 15 billion people driving for 400 years.
> No need for WWIII, Noch Eine Endloesung, Ebola, Festung Europa,
> AIDS, nukes, or Festung Amerika.  And I, I get _stinking_ rich.
>
> ****************ref 3*****************
>
> (CAVM gets excited!)
>
> From: CAVM@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 21:04:15 EST
> To: gasification@crest.org
> Subject: Re: GAS-L: Fuel Cells -- ethanol -- reforming natural gas
>
> In a message dated 1/12/2002 7:12:54 PM Central Standard Time,
> gregandapril@earthlink.net writes:
>
> << > ..actually, I prefer syngas here.  Which we can make cheaper
> than
>
>  > methanol.  ;-)
>
>  That is probably true, and easier to make as well, but, I don't see
> a simple way of storing syngas for future use, I don't think that
> syngas has the energy density for real storage efficeny, does it?

..we store energy in the flywheels.  ;-)

>  Gr >>
>
> Greg,  If syn gas from coal, or whatever source, can be used in place
> of methanol, it would be a big hit in rural areas where we have ready
> access to coal and other biomass.  Can you give a Reader's Digest
> version of how this might work? the fuel cell 

..Neal, you ask Greg to explain what I propose???
Greg, if you _do_ understand what I propose, 
by all means keep going.  ;-)

> Neal
>
> ****************ref 4***************
>
> (From past posting -- convering C0 to H2)
>
> Ok -- just typing the details -- as explained from the Alchemix site
> -- which is a graphic only -- no way to copy and paste.

..url?

> Pure hydrogen (H2) is produced in a high temperature environment when
> water (steam) is exposed to molten tin.

..fuel cell loop gasification does it in the good old carbon bed.  ;-)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with kind regards from Arnt...
...now named the Gasification List's Mr Cat of nine tails.  ;-)
  Scenarios always come in sets of three:
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

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