Re: GAS-L: Fuel Cells -- ethanol -- reforming natural gas

[jerry dycus <jerry5335@yahoo.com>]

       Hi Arnt and All, 
--- Arnt Karlsen <arnt@c2i.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:21:47 -0800 (PST)
> jerry dycus <jerry5335@yahoo.com> wrote in

> >       Hi Joacim and All,
> > --- Joacim Persson <joacim@ymex.net> wrote:
> > > On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > > 
> > > ...
> > > > ..at 25-35% efficiency, the gasoline and
> diesel
> > > engines _are_ obsolete.


> >      While  these can develop this kind of eff in
> > steady state running in a car the eff is more like
> 7%
> > of the fuel's energy actually drives the rear
> wheels. 
> >      A good EV can get up to 20% eff from the
> power
> > plant fuel to the road. 
> 
> ..with todays power plants, agreed. 
        With the TECO coal gasifier power plant that I
get my power from it's probably 25/28% because it's
60% eff by using the gas to power a gas turbine then
using it's exhauts to run a steam boiler to make more
electricity. 
      I'm trying to get them to burn some biomass with
the coal but they are coal people and TECO owns it's
coal mines too.  
      They are going to experiment with 10% biomass in
a DOE experiment soon and I will try to get them to
keep doing it after the tests are done.
        I've talked to them about introducing steam
into the gasifier bed to convert the leftover carbon 
to make more H2 and CO fuel, but haven't been able
talk them into it yet. I think if they did eff might
rise another 5%.

> 
> > > 
> > > Ehum. Not comparable. A flywheel is a storage of
> > > (close to?) 100% pure work.
> > > Ottos and diesels are heat motors. Heat is never
> > > 100% work, you know. ;)
> >       But where does the flywheels energy come
> from?
> 
> ..from "my" coal + MSW fired gasifier fuel cell
> loop, 
> eventually at 93%.
    How? If you convert coal/MSW to H2 it's about 50%
eff then the fuel cell is about 50% eff you are down
to 25% or less and you haven't driven the car yet.    
 
   Also you have to use energy to store the H2 or
electricity losing more energy, then the electric
drive system , electric in to ground, is between 70 to
85% eff. 

> 
> > What eff was it made at? While flywheels sound
> good
> > they have many problems in a car.
> > > 
> > > Beats a chemical battery though?
> >     Not in eff or cost. A lead/acid battery can
> charge
> > 
> > elect in /elect out at 95/ 97% eff and with a
> rundown
> 
> ..what???  Usually I hear around 60-70%.
     While true for NiMH batts, lead acid batts with
good chargers do quite well as above, nicads are about
93% eff due to self discharge. 
   My prefered battery for EV use is Ni-cads. They
have a good power/weight ratio, long life of 50,000 to
100,000 miles and will give my scratch built ev a 150
mile plus range. 
   While Li-ion are lossy they are about 80% eff, but
will give my ev a 250+ mile range when their cost
comes down.
> 
> > of 4 months while the flywheel will lose all it's
> > energy in 2 or 3 days and would be lucky to get
> 92%
> > eff not counting where the electricity comes from
> to
> 
> ..I use Jack Bitterly's flywheels as my baseline. 
> 96%.
        Does he include how much energy is lost to
friction while it's waiting to be used? Even good
flywheels will lose 1% per hr of running, most much
more.
    Does he include the controller losses which would
be at least 5% besides the flywheels motor/gen losses.
> 
> ..combining these with a superconducting grid, and a
> flywheel 
> "gas" station, ->  .93 * .96 * .96 = .857  
> This of course disregards mining and (coal and MSW)
> transport losses.
       And many other energy drains. A lead/acid
battery pack would be as/more eff at less cost. 
       It can and should be done but the eff are much
lower than you say. Why I'm on this list is to power
my EV from biomass. In Fla we have a lot free.
                   jerry dycus
> 
> 
> -- 
> ..med vennlig hilsen = with kind regards from
> Arnt...  ;-)


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