Re: GAS-L: Fuel Cells -- ethanol -- reforming natural gas

[Arnt Karlsen <arnt@c2i.net>]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:00:46 -0800 (PST)
jerry dycus <jerry5335@yahoo.com> wrote:

>        Hi Arnt and All, 
> --- Arnt Karlsen <arnt@c2i.net> wrote:
> > On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:21:47 -0800 (PST)
> > jerry dycus <jerry5335@yahoo.com> wrote in
> 
> > >       Hi Joacim and All,
> > > --- Joacim Persson <joacim@ymex.net> wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > ...
> > > > > ..at 25-35% efficiency, the gasoline and
> > diesel
> > > > engines _are_ obsolete.
> 
> 
> > >      While  these can develop this kind of eff in
> > > steady state running in a car the eff is more like
> > 7%
> > > of the fuel's energy actually drives the rear
> > wheels. 
> > >      A good EV can get up to 20% eff from the
> > power
> > > plant fuel to the road. 
> > 
> > ..with todays power plants, agreed. 
>         With the TECO coal gasifier power plant that I
> get my power from it's probably 25/28% because it's
> 60% eff by using the gas to power a gas turbine then
> using it's exhauts to run a steam boiler to make more
> electricity. 
>       I'm trying to get them to burn some biomass with
> the coal but they are coal people and TECO owns it's
> coal mines too.  

..the _big_ money is in coal.

>       They are going to experiment with 10% biomass in
> a DOE experiment soon and I will try to get them to
> keep doing it after the tests are done.
>         I've talked to them about introducing steam
> into the gasifier bed to convert the leftover carbon 
> to make more H2 and CO fuel, but haven't been able
> talk them into it yet. I think if they did eff might
> rise another 5%.
 
..cool.  Prove it.  ;-) 

> > > > Ehum. Not comparable. A flywheel is a storage of
> > > > (close to?) 100% pure work.
> > > > Ottos and diesels are heat motors. Heat is never
> > > > 100% work, you know. ;)
> > >       But where does the flywheels energy come
> > from?
> > 
> > ..from "my" coal + MSW fired gasifier fuel cell
> > loop, 
> > eventually at 93%.
>     How? If you convert coal/MSW to H2 it's about 50%
> eff then the fuel cell is about 50% eff you are down
> to 25% or less and you haven't driven the car yet.    

..today, yes.  The other half is doing the same with the CO.
_Tomorrows_ coal + MSW fired gasifier fuel cell loop uses 
fuel cell exhaust heat to drive most of the gasification.  
Which is why it must loop.  I estimate about 3.5 - 4 times.

>    Also you have to use energy to store the H2 or
> electricity losing more energy, then the electric
> drive system , electric in to ground, is between 70 to
> 85% eff. 

..no, the idea is to store the energy either upstream, 
as coal, or, downstream, in the flywheels.  
Flywheels also soak up shock loads such as grid transients.

..and, you don't want to store poisonous H² + CO gas, at all.

> > > What eff was it made at? While flywheels sound
> > good
> > > they have many problems in a car.
> > > > 
> > > > Beats a chemical battery though?
> > >     Not in eff or cost. A lead/acid battery can
> > charge
> > > 
> > > elect in /elect out at 95/ 97% eff and with a
> > rundown
> > 
> > ..what???  Usually I hear around 60-70%.
>      While true for NiMH batts, lead acid batts with
> good chargers do quite well as above, nicads are about
> 93% eff due to self discharge. 

..my experience is automotive starting batteries only, where I have 
experienced an average 50 full charge cycle life.  I am also aware 
that submarines has used lead cells since before WWI, however these 
50 cycles also match a reasonable submarine combat life expectancy.

>    My prefered battery for EV use is Ni-cads. They
> have a good power/weight ratio, long life of 50,000 to
> 100,000 miles and will give my scratch built ev a 150
> mile plus range. 

..neat.  Scratch built ev???  Url?

..my experience is good NiCd cells do around 60%.  Scaling up 
could add some, but cadmium is a future no-no heavy metal, which 
is phased out in favor of metal hydrides, which initially, doubled 
cell performance, as in 1100 mAh against 500 mAh in AA size cells.

>    While Li-ion are lossy they are about 80% eff, but
> will give my ev a 250+ mile range when their cost
> comes down.
> > 
> > > of 4 months while the flywheel will lose all it's
> > > energy in 2 or 3 days and would be lucky to get
> > 92%
> > > eff not counting where the electricity comes from
> > to
> > 
> > ..I use Jack Bitterly's flywheels as my baseline. 
> > 96%.
>         Does he include how much energy is lost to
> friction while it's waiting to be used? Even good
> flywheels will lose 1% per hr of running, most much
> more.
>     Does he include the controller losses which would
> be at least 5% besides the flywheels motor/gen losses.

..afaik, yes and yes.  Friction should also be air/gas 
friction in the vacuum box, and magnetic bearing losses.  
His "black box" charge cycle efficiency is 96%.

> > ..combining these with a superconducting grid, and a
> > flywheel 
> > "gas" station, ->  .93 * .96 * .96 = .857  
> > This of course disregards mining and (coal and MSW)
> > transport losses.
>        And many other energy drains. A lead/acid
> battery pack would be as/more eff at less cost. 

..which is why we go for flywheels.  
See above on submarines.  ;-)  

>        It can and should be done but the eff are much
> lower than you say. Why I'm on this list is to power
> my EV from biomass. In Fla we have a lot free.
>                    jerry dycus


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with kind regards from Arnt...  ;-)

  Scenarios always come in sets of three:
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

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