Re: GAS-L: Engine Experience

[Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>]

On Sun, Sep 01, 2002 at 09:39:30PM -0300, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> Dear Harmon
> 
> Harmon Seaver wrote:
> > 
> >
> > > Tesla turbine superseding the steam turbine??
> > >
> >   The Tesla can be run on steam (most are, in fact) or combustion fired.
> > 
> > > Seriously -- you joke -- right??
> > >
> > 
> >    Not at all.
> > 
> Is there anybody manufacturing Tesla Turbines? What is
> their efficiency?

    Nothing in commercial production that I know of at this point. Tesla was
having Allis-Chalmers build them originally, but unforturnately he was one of
the world's worst businessmen, and they faded into obscurity, despite being more
efficient and cheaper to build than anything on the market at that time. There
is a company which sounds as if it might begin production sometime soon --
www.bladeless.com. There are quite a few other people building prototypes,
however. 
    Here's one that says they'll be in production with a 200kw unit "end of
2002"   http://www.geocities.com/viscotherm/tesla.htm

> 
> > > I can detail the problems with steam -- starts with exceptional
> > > temperatures and pressures to get into the right ball park for high
> > > "over-all" efficiencies.
> > >
> > > Steam Turbines are only expensive when having to handle those high
> > > temperatures.
> > >
> > 
> >    Thats just one of the ways Teslas are better than conventional turbines --
> > cheaper to build and last longer.
> 
> I understand that as an "expansion engine" a
> conventional steam turbine has an efficiency of about
> 85%. Would you agree or disagree with this? 
> What would be a comparable "expansion engine
> efficiency" for a Tesla Turbine?

   Tesla claimed over 90%, check out the ViscoTherm site, they seem to be
claiming much higher. 


> ...del...> 
> > > And at half the cost of a "gasifier" --
> > >
> > > The name of this game is converting thermal energy in biomass to usable
> > > "power" at an efficient rate -- reliability for extended periods.
> > >
> >    But you also have to meet clean air standards, at least in the US and Europe,
> > and I'd think you'd have a bit of trouble doing that if the biomass isn't
> > gasified, then the gas burned. Even in the small homesized wood burning boilers
> > you see pretty horrific pollution except with the gasifiers.
> 
> Small sized boiler and stove systems are exactly where
> you expect the greatest pollution problems. Any decent
> sized commercial boiler on biomass can be run with
> virtually perfect combustion efficiency, and virtually
> zero pollutant (unburned combustibles) escape.


     Interesting. is it simply a matter of a bigger fire, more heat so nothing
escapes? I guess that makes sense, most of the smaller boilers are usually kept
smoldering away rather than hot enough for gasification.


> 
> In general, a gasifier requires a better fuel than does
> a boiler which, in general, tends to raise the fuel
> cost for a gasifier. Say we consider a 100 kW electric
> output power plant: would anyone know the cost of a
> "Gasifier + engine" system, in comparison to a "Boiler
> + steam turbine" system? 
> 
> Another very important consideration is the likely need
> for a Stationary Engineer to operate the 100 kW steam
> gtenerating plant, while it may be possible to automate
> teh gasifier and engine system, to the point that
> continuous Staff presence is not required. This would
> make a big difference in the cost of power output.
> > 
> Kindest regards,
> 
> Kevin CHisholm
> 
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
> 
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation,  Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
> 
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon

-- 
Harmon Seaver	
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation,  Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF
List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>

Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
-
Other Gasification Events and Information:
http://www.bioenergy2002.org
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon