Refractories and Luddites

["Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>]

Dear Harmon, Dean and All:

I understand Harmon's worry about health effects of refractory fibres and
other ceramics. I have had lung irritation working with Kaowool, so wear a
mask with ALL fibrous materials.  The carcinogenicity of asbestos is well
documented because it was so widely used during WWII until 1980.  Then the
long term effects became known through epidemiology.  Can't tell with only 1
or 10 or 100 people with varying exposure.

HOWEVER, an excess of caution could cause more damage by non-use than by
use.  The original Luddites were weavers fearing machines would destroy
their jobs.   They broke into factories and destroyed the new machines.  See

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRluddites.htm

I quiver and quake when I get in my car with warnings about the dire dangers
of air bags.  Yet the airbags probably save 100-1000 times as many lives as
they endanger.  So

a) should we do away with airbags?

b) should we do away with the warnings?

c) should we keep the airbags and train everyone in their use (Seat belts
MUCH more important)

I'll take C.

When pasteurization was first introduced it was strongly opposed by many
groups.  When fluoridation was intorduced it stirred up lots of opposition,
some of which still screams...

The moral of the story is that every large upside is bound to have a small
downside.  Are we to give up good insulating materials (improving the
cooking for millions) because we have to be careful during installation and
disposal (slightly endangering a very few)?  No, better to warn users and
installers about any known dangers.

In addition, we don't really know the problems that we face when using
"indigenous" (local, cheap) materials.  Since they are not widely available,
there is no MSDS (Material safety data sheet) available.

~~~~~~~~
I noticed that Thermal Ceramics has MSDS sheets available on all their
products.  Why not consult these rather than speculating on possible
carcinogenicity?

Your curmudgeon,                                     TOM REED
BEF





----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: <dstill@epud.net>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: refractory materials


> On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 10:13:22AM -0800, dstill@epud.net wrote:
> > Dear Friends,
> >
> > Tin cans only last about 30 firings in a Rocket stove combustion
chamber.
> > Heavier sheet metal, even stainless steel, does not last for many months
if the
> > stove is used daily. When we use really heavy metal or cast iron folks
don't
> > like the delay in response time, i.e., longer initial time to boil. I
> > guesstimate in designs that when temperatures are over 900F steel cannot
be
> > used, which means that steel is ok in the fuel magazine, pot skirt, etc.
> >
> > The company Thermal Ceramics (800)990 5264 makes a material called
TR-19, not
> > KAOWOOL, which is slightly carcinogenic, which I'm now using to make
> > prototypes. It is inexpensive, very insulative and refractory.
> >
>
>    Which do you mean "is slightly carcinogenic", the Kaowool or the
> TR-19? Kaowool and others of the thermoceramics are more than a little
> carcinogenic -- definitely want to be very careful working with them, wear
a
> respirator, gloves, etc. when forming or cutting. I know they've been
banned in
> some university art departments for kilns.
>    That's not to say they shouldn't be used, just carefully. So is the
TR-19
> safer?
>
> > We are working on home grown insulative, ceramic refractory recipes and
will
> > make a complete report soon.
> >
>
>    I think that's the real answer anyway. Especially if it's safer --
putting
> stoves with carcinogenic riser sleeves, Kaowool, or the like in kitchens
seems
> like simply trading one danger for another.
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
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-
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http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
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Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon

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