Re: GAS-L: RE: Gases for domestic cooking

[Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net>]

Dear Paul and listers;

"SYNTHESIS GAS in my favorite synthetic gas from biomass, since proven
processes exist to make it into methanol, DME, diesel gasoline or ammonia,
all the necessities of our current civilization."

In defense of Tom -- you got to look at the "bigger" picture!!

At present propane and butane are produced from natural gas by "steam
reforming" -- please -- anyone -- correct me if I am wrong!!

A process easily adapted to using synthesis gas rather than natural gas as
base.

Tom is merely suggesting that such "centralized" and later "distributed"
gas works can be "hypothetically" replaced by biomass based synthesis gas
production facilities -- 

This brings us right back to a few years ago when I was trying to get
interest going in regards to direct steam reforming of any biomass.

For those of you new to these lists -- or short of memory -- start here:

http://tzabcan.com/gas/BriteStar/TechnicalOverview.zip

Also -- just search steam reforming in the Gas archives.

Certainly -- extremely viable solution -- but sorry -- it does make all
this small biomass stove stuff redundant.

Synthesis gas can also be produced by combusting any biomass in a pure O2
atmosphere.

Andries Weststeijn -- a past member of the Gas list -- maybe still is --
works in a humongous coal fired power plant in Holland that does exactly this!

Replacing coal with any biomass in this style conversion -- is not so
impossible.

My "argument" -- for years on this topic -- has been easier to use a steam
atmosphere than and O2 one.

The BriteStar example I post above was a working prototype plant exactly
along these lines -- and to this day -- we know not why that company just
went "phoof" --

But certainly -- replacing natural gas with biomass to produce propane --
and probably butane -- is not only "real" -- but extremely viable.

It is simply a matter of waiting for this planet to run low on fossil fuel
deposits -- then we shall see.

Still -- I certainly believe that if 3rd world power houses got 100% behind
the development of such plants -- now -- it would happen much sooner.

We must ignore the modern industrialized nations -- they are so tied up
under their elitist oriented rulers -- there is absolutely no hope of any
changes -- till the last deposit of fossil fuel is gone -- 

and by then -- it will be far to late. but the same elitists -- or their
descendants -- will be so filthy rich -- they probably will have personal
nuclear power plants in any event!!

The rest of those foolish moderns -- be damned!! They will soon be reverted
back to living stone age -- 

It is up to us in 3rd world to rectify this present situation -- and not by
"just" promoting small stoves that burn cleaner -- and maybe use less
biomass to boil a tub of water.

You see -- everything has it's place -- and everything has it's time.

I "hope" that was what Tom was trying to say??

And one last point -- at this entrance level -- "biomass" can be wood --
straw -- rice bran -- and even chicken manure -- human manure -- and
especially -- human refuse!! Any "BIOMASS" could be utilized!!

Try that with a village stove!!

Read the BriteStar "paper" -- 

Peter Singfield
Belize


At 03:55 PM 11/20/2002 -0600, you wrote: 
>>>>
At 09:12 PM 11/20/02 +0000, Gavin Gulliver-Goodall wrote:

Tom,

So how do we make synthesis gas as clearly this must be our main aim.
(rather than good ole producer gas with that sweet sickly smell and tars
that gum up engines)
Gavin,

I do not think it is a simple switch.  First, your Subject line says "for
domestic cooking" but your comment speaks of "engines."  Quite different.  

Second, Tom did not mention the "pyrolysis gasifier gases" that are
produced and used in Tom's Woodgas Campstove and in my Juntos stoves for
developing countries.  There is confusion about even the terminology
(names) of gases.

Third, at least some (including Gus Johansson in South Africa) who claim
that the tars, etc are minimal in their producer gas.  

And Fourth, "synthesis gas" probably has many variations, each with
advantages and disadvantages that could relate to intended uses.

But as Gavin asks, perhaps someone on the list serve can explain the extent
to which "synthesis gas" is made and is relevant to our topic of domestic
cooking for poor people.

Paul

Thanks

Gavin

 

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall

3G Energi,

 

Tel +44 (0)1835 824201

Fax +44 (0)870 8314098

Mob +44 (0)7773 781498

E mail Gavin@3genergi.co.uk
<<mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk> 

 

The contents of this email and any attachments are the property of 3G
Energi  and are intended for the confidential use of the named recipient(s)
only.  They may be legally privileged and should not be communicated to or
relied upon by any person without our express written consent.  If you are
not an addressee please notify us immediately at the address above or by
email at Gavin@3genergi.co.uk
<<mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>. Any files
attached to this email will have been checked with virus detection software
before transmission.  However, you should carry out your own virus check
before opening any attachment.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Reed [<mailto:tombreed@attbi.com>mailto:tombreed@attbi.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 16:04
To: A.D. Karve; stoves@crest.org; gasification
Cc: esloan@mines.edu
Subject: Gases for domestic cooking 

 

Dear Nandu et al:

 

PROPANE is my favorite 20th century fuel because

 

It burns very clean as a gas

It stores as a liquid at relatively low pressures (<15 atm, boiling point
-42C)

It is self delivered (no fuel pump)

It has a very high energy both on a liquid, gas and weight basis

 

Unfortunately it is <3% of the oil barrel and as oil prices go up will be
ever less available to those who need it least.  It can't be synthesized
from other oil components or biomass.

 

DIMETHYL ETHER, DME is my favorite 21st Century fuel because 

 

It burns very clean as a gas and is being considered for diesel engines
(and I suspect, spark)

It stores as a liquid at relatively low pressures (<15 atm, boiling point
-42C)

It is self delivered (no fuel pump)

It has a very high energy both on a liquid, gas and weight basis

It is even easier to make from synthesis gas than methanol, my favorite
liquid fuel

   

METHANE is not nearly so nice, because

 

It is a permanent gas (BP = -164C, lots of energy to liquefy, stored in
VERY heavy cylinders), so hard to  store

Pipelines cost >$10/mile.  Do you have any domestic methane in India?

Less than half the energy of propane

 

BIOGAS has most of the faults of methane with only 2/3 the energy due to
1/3 CO2 content.

 

However, I wonder if it isn't easier to liquefy than methane because the
CO2 boils much higher AND MAY FORM A HYDRATE.

Does anyone know about this (i.e. Dendy Sloan)?  

 

PRODUCER GAS is the worst of this list because it contains 50% N2  BUT

It is very easily made by the air gasification of all sorts of biomass, and
can be used locally for heat or power generation, a well proven technology
(<http://www.gocpc.com>www.gocpc.com)

 

SYNTHESIS GAS in my favorite synthetic gas from biomass, since proven
processes exist to make it into methanol, DME, diesel gasoline or ammonia,
all the necessities of our current civilization. 

 

Comments?

 

TOM REED                             BEF GASWORKS

 

Dr. Thomas B. Reed
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
<mailto:tombreed@attbi.com>tombreed@attbi.com; 303 278 0558 Phone/Fax

----- Original Message ----- 

From: <mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>A.D. Karve 

To: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org 

Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:38 AM

Subject: cooking devices for rural India

 

LPG has become popular all over India because of its extreme user
friendliness.  Housewives have changed their ethnic and cultural cooking
habits, scrapped their traditional cookpots and purchased new ones that
suit the LPG stoves. Biogas has the same qualities as LPG but the biogas
technology failed to become popular in India because everybody was supposed
to make his own biogas. We are working towards establishing rural
enterprises producing and selling biogas.  The so called community biogas
plants have not at all been successful in India, but we feel that we have
the right formula to make them successful. I am trying to get funding for
establishing a pilot plant based on my ideas, and shall report about it
when it gets going.

A.D.Karve 
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary
University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of
Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL
61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail:
psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items:
<http://www.ilstu.edu/~psanders>www.ilstu.edu/~psanders 




Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation,  tombreed@attbi.com Biomass =
Energy Foundation, www.woodgas.com
List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
-
Gasification List Archives http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
Bioenergy 2002 http://www.bioenergy2002.org/
200 kWe CHP Discussion
http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification/200kWCHP.html
Gasification Reference http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html

>