Re: GAS-L: Re: LPG and steam reforming

[Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net>]

Dear Jim and all listers --

I agree that "modern" engineering makes this proposition a loser. For a
number of reasons -- 

The first -- well discussed on this list in the past -- being:

A major biomass synthesis gas operation (or any major biomass project)
would require so much biomass that transport costs over come practicality.

That is those huge -- modern world standards -- processing plants -- 

As Jim illustrates:

>If this were made from
>green wood at 60% efficiency, you'd need about 3500 t/day of wood.  I expect
>you could harvest this from a sustainably-managed forest of about 600 square
>km (240 sq miles).

A second "killer" is cost of plant.

>A world-scale methanol plant is currently at
>least 2000 t/d, and costs about US$250 million. 

Our real interest rates in 3rd world are 15% and over. So massive
engineering models do not pay.

OK -- let's take the sugar industry as example.

Here in Belize -- we have just lately considered "modernizing" our single
sugar factory.

The end cost come to 240 million US.

At 15% interest -- just the interest payment alone works out to $375 per
ton of product!!

World market prices are presently $156 US per ton -- and India yet can sell
for $130 per ton -- and show profit!!

Australia -- like Belize -- is struggling at a loss to survive -- using
"modern" technology as Jim is blind sided with.

How does India do this??

Well -- start by looking this Url over:

http://www.tinytechindia.com/sugar.htm

Of course it is terribly labor intensive -- and at very low pay -- no
"Modern" would ever consider such a "plan".

Yet it works very well in 3rd world.

I humbly suggest the "modern" engineers on this list let their feet touch
the ground and walk on earth -- rather than air.

The future lays with 3rd world -- not with bloated 1'rst world and it's
slanted perspectives.

They were making synthesis gas in small "gas" plants over 150 years ago.
Supplying it to customers -- as a gas fuel -- 

>All of the above processes run at high temperature (up to 1000°C - 1800°F)
>and pressure (150 bar - 2250 psig), require a massive scale to be
>competitive, and are totally unsuited to the scale of biomass gasification
>that this list discusses.

You really should study this topic in greater depth. I presented a simple
-- village level -- steam reforming process years back on this list --
operating at 5000 psi -- and less expensive than a diesel power plant.

I know labor intensive -- and downsizing -- are dirty words for a "Modern"
-- but hey -- it is real. 

If we all could live with huge political and economic trade deficits --
year after year -- as do the modern nations -- we to here in 3rd world
could walk on air like you folks do.

But we can't -- so we strive for real results -- while always hampered by
"moderns" that are trying to keep a secure lid on all economic prospects
viable and real for us here in 3rd world.

They achieve this goal by over engineering -- pure "bloatware"!!!

But hey -- look over that Url and see how India blind sides your sugar
industry in Australia!

Give me half the chance -- I'll do the same for synthesis gas production!

But no -- it will not happen -- can't happen -- bloatedness rules this day
and this age -- and will -- right to the very bitter end!!

Tom's whimsical suggestion stands!

We here in 3rd world need constructive innovation -- not more dogmatic
"modern" engineering specializing in plumber's nightmares that are only
economically feasible for societies with unlimited credit and no intentions
of ever paying their "accounts"!

If your economic "bubble" ever does collapse -- you'll personally quickly
grasp this concept -- that I promise!!

No wonder "Sleep-Disturbance" is the single greatest medical problem in
modern industrialized nations.

We here at least know what we face -- and still manage to live with it --
and sleep well at night!

This list is often not "Sci-Fi" -- but rather pure "Fantasy" --

That fantasy being that global deficit existence is a viable life process!!

Peter/Belize



At 03:00 PM 11/21/2002 +1100, Jim Bland wrote:
>Propane (C3H8) and butane (C4H10) are extracted from oil and natural gas
>production.  LPG is a mixture of propane and butane, anywhere from 100%
>propane to 100% butane.  The mix depends on the end use and the ambient
>conditions.  In southern Australia, for automotive use, you will find that
>LPG contains more propane in winter to keep the vapour pressure high for
>easy starting, and less propane in summer.
>
>In a typical oil/gas well, there will be some initial separation of oil and
>gas at or near the well head.  The oil will contain most of the >/=C5s
>(pentanes and heavier).  The gas will contain most of  the <C5s (butanes,
>propane, ethane (C2H6) and methane(CH4)).  Further separation of the gases
>is done in a gas plant, which will typically have 3 outlet streams:
>=    methane (for sale as a fuel),
>=    ethane (for sale as a feedstock to ethylene plants, and subsequent
>chemical manufacture)
>=    propane and butane (for LPG)
>
>Propane and butane or not normally "manufactured".  What you get with your
>oil and gas production is what you have to sell.
>
>Methane can be used for chemical manufacture.  The main processes start with
>reforming, which is reaction of methane with either steam ("steam
>reforming") or oxygen to form mixtures of carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide
>and hydrogen (synthesis gas), by such reactions as:
>
>CH4 + H2O => CO + 3H2
>CH4 + ½O2 => CO + 2H2
>
>Synthesis gas can be used to make ammonia, methanol, DME, and synthetic
>diesel.  Most of the processes use a catalyst which achieves typically 25%
>conversion of synthesis gas to chemical product, so there is a need to
>recycle the unreacted synthesis gases.  If the synthesis gas contains large
>amounts of inert gases such as nitrogen or carbon dioxide, these will need
>to be either recycled, with consequent increased compressor power and purge
>gas losses, or removed immediately after the reforming step, which is
>expensive.
>
>All of the above processes run at high temperature (up to 1000°C - 1800°F)
>and pressure (150 bar - 2250 psig), require a massive scale to be
>competitive, and are totally unsuited to the scale of biomass gasification
>that this list discusses.  A world-scale methanol plant is currently at
>least 2000 t/d, and costs about US$250 million.  If this were made from
>green wood at 60% efficiency, you'd need about 3500 t/day of wood.  I expect
>you could harvest this from a sustainably-managed forest of about 600 square
>km (240 sq miles).
>
>I'm not sure whether this helps the discussion, but it should clear up some
>misconceptions.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jim Bland
>
>Enecon Pty. Ltd.
>Level 2, 35 Whitehorse Rd.,  Deepdene  VIC  3103,  Australia
>PO Box 555,  Deepdene DC  VIC  3103, Australia
>Tel: +61-3-9817 6255
>Fax: +61-3-9817 6455
>www.enecon.com.au
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
>To: Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net>
>Cc: <gasification@crest.org>
>Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 2:20 PM
>Subject: Re: GAS-L: RE: Gases for domestic cooking
>
>
>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 08:12:14PM -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Paul and listers;
>> >
>> > "SYNTHESIS GAS in my favorite synthetic gas from biomass, since proven
>> > processes exist to make it into methanol, DME, diesel gasoline or
>ammonia,
>> > all the necessities of our current civilization."
>> >
>> > In defense of Tom -- you got to look at the "bigger" picture!!
>> >
>> > At present propane and butane are produced from natural gas by "steam
>> > reforming" -- please -- anyone -- correct me if I am wrong!!
>>
>>
>>    Propane is from petroleum, isn't it? LPG -- liquified petroleum gas.
>>
>> --
>> Harmon Seaver
>> CyberShamanix
>> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>
>
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>>
>
>

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