Re: GAS-L: The "Hydrogen Economy": Bleak or Bright?

[Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net>]

Dear All --

There is -- however -- a really cute method of converting synthesis gas to
almost pure H2 product -- at great efficiencies -- using a liquid tin metal
bath. 

(converting CO to H2)

Search the Gas archives under my name -- "Peter" -- it is all detailed --
Urls -- etc -- "there".

Kind of makes one rethink the biomass to electrical power route.

As yes -- Tom is correct -- making H2 is so inefficient -- using modern
conventional "dogmatic" vision.

Again -- you'll all have to wait for us here in 3rd world to map this road
out for you.

True innovation has been proclaimed a terrorist activity in modern world.

And it certainly is a terror -- to established bloatware technologies -- as
so well controlled by your powers that be.

Think I exaggerate??

What is the fossil fuel cartel doing?

Probably funding the "conservatives" on these lists. Making sure we play
with better ways to burn sticks -- than come to any "real" energy solutions
-- especially those based on biomass -- so generally available -- so hard
to "control".

Mercantile capitalism and the robber barons -- stay tuned for the eventual
destruction of mankind!

Present status quo for ever!!

Well, maybe -- but first you have to deal with us renegade engineers!

Living in 3rd world -- slightly beyond your reach!! And the one true
technical innovation of the past few years -- the WWW!

As soon as the major developing nation "power-houses" see through the
modern industrialized nations "con-job" -- watch out!

Till then -- yes -- H2 as a viable village "fuel" is "impossible".

Small scale production of synthesis gas -- steam reforming biomass --
"stay" impossible!

There are no feeding troughs for Phd's in those domains -- get the message??

We are stuck in this quagmire till the robber barons finish working us over!

Building large centralized processing plants that are not cost effective is
the program -- right?

Employs lot's of engineers -- Phd's -- and just what else do you think is
important?

An advance in functions??

You got to be kidding!!

no -- the program is to convince emerging nations of mankind that without
all the industrialized bloatware -- nothing can be ever done.

That is the con-job.

Sure -- we support improved better burning of sticks in your "caves" -- but
that is as far as this will go.

Look -- we'll supply umpteen million Phd's to help you burn stick better!
See how lucky you are to have us around to guide you into a better
existence in this modern world??

Biomass to pure H2 is more than viable -- as are H2 fuel cells.

But not as long as modern nations with their robber barons -- control all
playing fields.

Peter / Belize

At 07:33 AM 11/21/2002 -0700, Tom Reed wrote:
>Dear Mr. Benemann:
>
>I have long been a fan of methanol as the best replacement for gasoline.
>However, you are correct in discouraging the idealists from thinking
>backyard methanol - even small ethanol should be included. Backyard steel
>mills and chemical plants went out with Mao.
>
>Now let me disabuse you of the "Hydrogen Dream".  Hydrogen is a  major
>component of most fuels, but by itself has never been considered as a fuel -
>until atomic energy (with electricity too cheap to meter) and the hydrogen
>fuel cell arrived.  Pure hydrogen is too expensive to make, too hard to ship
>and store and often too difficult to use because of its 10X flame speed.
>
>For an excellent, balanced, evaluation of the costs associated with
>hydrogen, see
>The Future of the Hydrogen Economy:
>Bright or Bleak?
>Baldur Eliasson1 and Ulf Bossel2
>1ABB Switzerland Ltd., Corporate Research, Baden-Dättwil / Switzerland
>2Fuel Cell Consultant, Oberrohrdorf / Switzerland
>at
>http://www.nrel.gov/ncpv/hotline/pdf/hydrogen_economy.pdf.
>
>~~~~~~~~~
>
>The October 2002 Scientific American had an article on "Vehicle of Change,
>How fuel-cell Cars Could Revolutionize the World.  The article, by three
>high level GM executives extolled the mechanical ingenuities of possible
>hydrogen cars while skipping over the dark realities of generation, supply
>and storage.
>
>Then, in an amazing editorial the editors warned about "Greenwashing the
>car".  They said "Two cheers for the fuel-cell-car pioneers.  But this
>transformation will start to get serious only in a decade or so.  Until
>then, industsry lobbyists will apparently continue to battle against
>near-term measures to improve the environment.  Skeptics note that the
>commitemnet to a far-off technology lets the auto industry earn
>environmental kudos without necessarily incurring the cost of producing
>high-mileage cars today.  Environmentalists have a name for a strategy in
>which one flaunts green credentials while pusing to maintain the ability to
>pollute:  "greenwashing."
>
>I fear that this focus on the hydrogen dream will trump practical
>development of practical fuels which we will need when worl oil production
>peaks and begins to dwindle.  I fear the the Hydrogen dream will take over
>in national energy plans and leave us with ... nothing.
>
>Here's to our children and grandchildren's energy sources being as good as
>ours have been...
>
>Thomas B. Reed
>
>Dr. Thomas B. Reed
>1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
>tombreed@attbi.com; 303 278 0558 Phone/Fax
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <JBenemann@aol.com>
>To: <enecon@ozemail.com.au>
>Cc: <gasification@crest.org>
>Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 2:11 AM
>Subject: Re: GAS-L: Re: LPG and steam reforming
>
>
>> Dear Mr. Bland:
>>
>> Thank you for your very useful, concise and instructive primer on
>hydrocarbon
>> gases.  In particular you laid to rest the old saw about making biogas or
>> gasifier gas into methanol - the compressor costs become horribly
>expensive
>> at small scales and make such process only suitable for large-scale
>systems.
>> Of course you still have to clean up the gas to remove tars, etc....  I
>hope
>> this will lay to rest this whole business.
>>
>> One question though: what about making H2?  I would be interested in your
>> answer.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John R. Benemann, Ph.D.
>> 3434 Tice Creek Dr. No.1
>> Walnut Creek, CA 94595
>> (925) 939 5864 Fax (925) 944 1205
>> Cell (925) 352 3352  jbenemann@aol.com
>>
>> Gasification List Moderator:
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