Re: GAS-L: RE: Gases for domestic cooking - Propane and butane

["Goldthorpe" <gldthrp@nznet.gen.nz>]

Peter,

Propane and butane are by-products of oil and gas production.

Methane (1 carbon atom - C1)  and ethane (2 carbon atoms -C2) can be sold as
pipeline natural gas.  Pentane and above (5 carbon atoms and more - C5+) are
naphtha, which is the basis of petrol. However, there is no such ready
market for propane (3 carbon atoms- C3) and butane (4 carbon atoms - C4),
which condense when compressed.

When oil and gas resources are separated into fractions by distillation, the
C3/C4 fraction is separated out as liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) which is
sold as a separate product.  In many countries (e.g. New Zealand) the supply
of LPG exceeds the essential demand for the product so this by-product of
oil and gas production is sold off into heating markets etc. at low prices.

I hope this clarifies the origin of propane and butane.

Steve Goldthorpe Energy Analyst Limited
PO Box 68, Greenhithe
Auckland, New Zealand
Phone 09 413 9696
Fax 09 413 9642
Mobile 0274 849 764
Email gldthrp@nznet.gen.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@btl.net>
To: <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: RE: Gases for domestic cooking


>
> Dear Paul and listers;
>
> "SYNTHESIS GAS in my favorite synthetic gas from biomass, since proven
> processes exist to make it into methanol, DME, diesel gasoline or ammonia,
> all the necessities of our current civilization."
>
> In defense of Tom -- you got to look at the "bigger" picture!!
>
> At present propane and butane are produced from natural gas by "steam
> reforming" -- please -- anyone -- correct me if I am wrong!!
>
> A process easily adapted to using synthesis gas rather than natural gas as
> base.
>
> Tom is merely suggesting that such "centralized" and later "distributed"
> gas works can be "hypothetically" replaced by biomass based synthesis gas
> production facilities --
>
> This brings us right back to a few years ago when I was trying to get
> interest going in regards to direct steam reforming of any biomass.
>
> For those of you new to these lists -- or short of memory -- start here:
>
> http://tzabcan.com/gas/BriteStar/TechnicalOverview.zip
>
> Also -- just search steam reforming in the Gas archives.
>
> Certainly -- extremely viable solution -- but sorry -- it does make all
> this small biomass stove stuff redundant.
>
> Synthesis gas can also be produced by combusting any biomass in a pure O2
> atmosphere.
>
> Andries Weststeijn -- a past member of the Gas list -- maybe still is --
> works in a humongous coal fired power plant in Holland that does exactly
this!
>
> Replacing coal with any biomass in this style conversion -- is not so
> impossible.
>
> My "argument" -- for years on this topic -- has been easier to use a steam
> atmosphere than and O2 one.
>
> The BriteStar example I post above was a working prototype plant exactly
> along these lines -- and to this day -- we know not why that company just
> went "phoof" --
>
> But certainly -- replacing natural gas with biomass to produce propane --
> and probably butane -- is not only "real" -- but extremely viable.
>
> It is simply a matter of waiting for this planet to run low on fossil fuel
> deposits -- then we shall see.
>
> Still -- I certainly believe that if 3rd world power houses got 100%
behind
> the development of such plants -- now -- it would happen much sooner.
>
> We must ignore the modern industrialized nations -- they are so tied up
> under their elitist oriented rulers -- there is absolutely no hope of any
> changes -- till the last deposit of fossil fuel is gone --
>
> and by then -- it will be far to late. but the same elitists -- or their
> descendants -- will be so filthy rich -- they probably will have personal
> nuclear power plants in any event!!
>
> The rest of those foolish moderns -- be damned!! They will soon be
reverted
> back to living stone age --
>
> It is up to us in 3rd world to rectify this present situation -- and not
by
> "just" promoting small stoves that burn cleaner -- and maybe use less
> biomass to boil a tub of water.
>
> You see -- everything has it's place -- and everything has it's time.
>
> I "hope" that was what Tom was trying to say??
>
> And one last point -- at this entrance level -- "biomass" can be wood --
> straw -- rice bran -- and even chicken manure -- human manure -- and
> especially -- human refuse!! Any "BIOMASS" could be utilized!!
>
> Try that with a village stove!!
>
> Read the BriteStar "paper" --
>
> Peter Singfield
> Belize
>
>
> At 03:55 PM 11/20/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >>>>
> At 09:12 PM 11/20/02 +0000, Gavin Gulliver-Goodall wrote:
>
> Tom,
>
> So how do we make synthesis gas as clearly this must be our main aim.
> (rather than good ole producer gas with that sweet sickly smell and tars
> that gum up engines)
> Gavin,
>
> I do not think it is a simple switch.  First, your Subject line says "for
> domestic cooking" but your comment speaks of "engines."  Quite different.
>
> Second, Tom did not mention the "pyrolysis gasifier gases" that are
> produced and used in Tom's Woodgas Campstove and in my Juntos stoves for
> developing countries.  There is confusion about even the terminology
> (names) of gases.
>
> Third, at least some (including Gus Johansson in South Africa) who claim
> that the tars, etc are minimal in their producer gas.
>
> And Fourth, "synthesis gas" probably has many variations, each with
> advantages and disadvantages that could relate to intended uses.
>
> But as Gavin asks, perhaps someone on the list serve can explain the
extent
> to which "synthesis gas" is made and is relevant to our topic of domestic
> cooking for poor people.
>
> Paul
>
> Thanks
>
> Gavin
>
>
>
> Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
>
> 3G Energi,
>
>
>
> Tel +44 (0)1835 824201
>
> Fax +44 (0)870 8314098
>
> Mob +44 (0)7773 781498
>
> E mail Gavin@3genergi.co.uk
> <<mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>mailto:Gavin@3genergi.co.uk>
>
>
>
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>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Reed [<mailto:tombreed@attbi.com>mailto:tombreed@attbi.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 16:04
> To: A.D. Karve; stoves@crest.org; gasification
> Cc: esloan@mines.edu
> Subject: Gases for domestic cooking
>
>
>
> Dear Nandu et al:
>
>
>
> PROPANE is my favorite 20th century fuel because
>
>
>
> It burns very clean as a gas
>
> It stores as a liquid at relatively low pressures (<15 atm, boiling point
> -42C)
>
> It is self delivered (no fuel pump)
>
> It has a very high energy both on a liquid, gas and weight basis
>
>
>
> Unfortunately it is <3% of the oil barrel and as oil prices go up will be
> ever less available to those who need it least.  It can't be synthesized
> from other oil components or biomass.
>
>
>
> DIMETHYL ETHER, DME is my favorite 21st Century fuel because
>
>
>
> It burns very clean as a gas and is being considered for diesel engines
> (and I suspect, spark)
>
> It stores as a liquid at relatively low pressures (<15 atm, boiling point
> -42C)
>
> It is self delivered (no fuel pump)
>
> It has a very high energy both on a liquid, gas and weight basis
>
> It is even easier to make from synthesis gas than methanol, my favorite
> liquid fuel
>
>
>
> METHANE is not nearly so nice, because
>
>
>
> It is a permanent gas (BP = -164C, lots of energy to liquefy, stored in
> VERY heavy cylinders), so hard to  store
>
> Pipelines cost >$10/mile.  Do you have any domestic methane in India?
>
> Less than half the energy of propane
>
>
>
> BIOGAS has most of the faults of methane with only 2/3 the energy due to
> 1/3 CO2 content.
>
>
>
> However, I wonder if it isn't easier to liquefy than methane because the
> CO2 boils much higher AND MAY FORM A HYDRATE.
>
> Does anyone know about this (i.e. Dendy Sloan)?
>
>
>
> PRODUCER GAS is the worst of this list because it contains 50% N2  BUT
>
> It is very easily made by the air gasification of all sorts of biomass,
and
> can be used locally for heat or power generation, a well proven technology
> (<http://www.gocpc.com>www.gocpc.com)
>
>
>
> SYNTHESIS GAS in my favorite synthetic gas from biomass, since proven
> processes exist to make it into methanol, DME, diesel gasoline or ammonia,
> all the necessities of our current civilization.
>
>
>
> Comments?
>
>
>
> TOM REED                             BEF GASWORKS
>
>
>
> Dr. Thomas B. Reed
> 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
> <mailto:tombreed@attbi.com>tombreed@attbi.com; 303 278 0558 Phone/Fax
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: <mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>A.D. Karve
>
> To: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org
>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:38 AM
>
> Subject: cooking devices for rural India
>
>
>
> LPG has become popular all over India because of its extreme user
> friendliness.  Housewives have changed their ethnic and cultural cooking
> habits, scrapped their traditional cookpots and purchased new ones that
> suit the LPG stoves. Biogas has the same qualities as LPG but the biogas
> technology failed to become popular in India because everybody was
supposed
> to make his own biogas. We are working towards establishing rural
> enterprises producing and selling biogas.  The so called community biogas
> plants have not at all been successful in India, but we feel that we have
> the right formula to make them successful. I am trying to get funding for
> establishing a pilot plant based on my ideas, and shall report about it
> when it gets going.
>
> A.D.Karve
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.,  Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00 Rotary
> University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003 Dept of
> Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University Normal, IL
> 61790-4400   Voice:  309-438-7360;  FAX:  309-438-5310 E-mail:
> psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items:
> <http://www.ilstu.edu/~psanders>www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>
>
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation,  tombreed@attbi.com Biomass =
> Energy Foundation, www.woodgas.com
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> >



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>