Bad form altogether!

[Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>]

   Not only the html and the unchanged subject headings, but why people cannot
set their mail readers to quote properly is more than I can understand. Every
mail reader certainly has this ability, and it not only makes the discussions a
million times more readable, but it also makes replying at least a thousand
times easier. 
   Why are you folks not doing this? I'm sure a lot of us miss a lot of good
info simply because it is too difficult to follow who said what. If you set your
reader to automatically quote when replying, and with the internet standard
quoting marks -- usually the ">" you see below -- it is then just ever so simple
to interject your answers and questions into to text and it all is clearly
delineated as to who says what.
   And good mail readers such the Mutt I'm using here even ask you each time
whether you want to quote the message or not and also allow you to set whether
you want to "top quote" or "bottom quote". 
   It's really hard for me to comprehend why so many people here who obviously
are technically proficient in many other areas can't seem to figure out how to
do extremely simple things like set up their mail reader properly.

On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 09:24:57AM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> Dear Tom
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom Reed
> To: Kevin Chisholm ; Ron Larson ; gasification
> Cc: THodson@aol.com ; Paul S. Anderson ; stoves@crest.org
> Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 8:54 AM
> Subject: GAS-L: NOT (Re: Kilns), but CHECK THE TITLE
> 
> 
> Dear Kevin and all:
> 
> I suppose Kevin's complaint is justified for some and we should stick to
> plain text when possible (which is most of the time).
> 
> (Kevin Said This.)Considering the nuisance caused by HTML, when is it ever
> justified on these Lists?
> 
> However, even better would be a resolution on all our parts to use
> appropriate titles.  We are all guilty of hitting the reply button, changing
> the subject of the body but not the title.
> 
> PLEASE CHECK THE TITLE LINE BEFORE SENDING.  We DO archive all this stuff
> and the archives are unnecessarily cluttered when we ignore the tile line.
> 
> Dr. Thomas B. Reed
> 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
> tombreed@attbi.com; 303 278 0558 Phone/Fax
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kevin Chisholm
> To: Ron Larson
> Cc: THodson@aol.com ; Paul S. Anderson ; stoves@crest.org
> Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:43 AM
> Subject: Re: Kilns
> 
> 
> Dear Ron
> 
> You go to a lot of effort to deal with HTML posts, to enable the reader to
> understand "who said what."
> 
> HTML has no redeeming social merit, as far as I can see!! :-)
> 
> What about if all those posting to the CREST Lists did so in Plain Text? It
> would make life very simple for all of us?
> 
> Kindest regards,
> 
> Kevin Chisholm
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ron Larson
> To: A.D. Karve
> Cc: THodson@aol.com ; Paul S. Anderson ; stoves@crest.org
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 11:24 AM
> Subject: RE: Kilns
> 
> 
> AD
> 
> See notes below:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A.D. Karve [mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in]
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 2:04 AM
> To: Ron Larson
> Cc: THodson@aol.com; Paul S. Anderson; stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: Kilns
> 
> 
> Dear Ron,
> we have two types of extruded briquettes. One set has a diameter of about 19
> to 20 mm and the other has a diameter of about 12 to 13 mm.  However,
> because of the problematic electrical supply in the rural areas, we have now
> opted for the honeycomb briquettes, which are made manually, using a mold.
> The honeycomb briquettes have a diameter of about 12 cm and height of about
> 3 cm.  Each briquette has 13 vertical holes. Paul Hait wanted to know if we
> are using the thermal array type of arrangement of briquettes in our stove.
> 
> [Ron Larson]   For new stoves list members, we should say that Paul Hait
> developed a charcoal using system in which the "pillow" type briquette was
> carefully placed vertically in slots and in rows in such a way as to get the
> radiation from one impinging on another - with good air flow.  I don't
> recall the percent reduction in charcoal consumption - but it might have
> been a factor of four or five.  He also used stainless steel (reflective)
> parts and a clever fold-up design to get higher efficiencies and user
> convenience.
>         Paul's question is important in "holey" (or "honeycomb") briquettes,
> because the same principal of getting good use out of the radiated energy
> (inside the holes as opposed to going off to be absorbed in something other
> than the cook pot) helps improve combustion enormously.
>     In your case, what is the diameter of the 13 vertical holes?
>     How does this diameter change during a run?
>     Is there a brittle "ash" skeleton remaining at the end?
>     How long does a single briquette last?  (presumably one being long
> enough for cooking the meal you describe)
>     Could you make one twice as tall to cook for twice as long?  (In a
> different culture)
>        Is there a "haybox" effect also? (some cooking after the single
> charcoal briquette is consumed?)
>     Could you describe how lighting is achieved?
>     Approximately how high above the briquette do the flames appear - and
> how does this distance change during a single cooking?
>     What are the prices of all of the components of the system - including
> for a single briquette?
>     What lifetime do you expect for the charcoal burner?  (presumably the
> cookpot portion is much longer-lived)
>     Will this particular pot and shield be available for export to
> interested members of "stoves"? at what price?
> 
> 
> 
>   The answer is "no", because with a single honeycomb briquette, no
> arrangement is possible.  When we were using the cylindrical (extruded)
> briquettes, be just weighed 100 grams of them and put a single layer of
> briquettes spread evenly on the grate of the stove.
> We use grain starch as binder.  The flour fallen on the floor of a flour
> mill is swept and sold by the mill operator at a price of Rs. 2 per kg
> (Rs.50 per US$). The cost of the char is Rs. 3 per kg. Because the flour is
> not costlier than the char, there is no restriction on the quantity of the
> flour. We boil about 400 g of flower in 1.5 litres of water and mix it
> thoroughly with 1 kg char to make a dough.  This dough is filled into the
> briquette mold and the briquettes are dried in the sun
> [Ron Larson]   Does this mean that you might have a wet mix of about 2.9
> kg - going to a dry batch of  maybe 1.5 + kg - so this recipe might give
> 15-20 briquettes - with a raw material cost of about 5 rupees or US 10
> cents - so one briquette (one meal) has a raw material cost of less than 2/3
> cent?
> 
> Our stove is a commercially available charcoal burning stove, made of mild
> steel sheets. The stove is 11 cm tall. The cooker consists of a stainless
> steel container, about 21 cm tall and 18 cm wide, closed with a lid, which
> is not too tight. The gaps between the container and the lid allow steam to
> escape. Inside the cooker, three cook pots are stacked one on top of the
> other, so that three things (rice, beans and vegetables) can be cooked
> simultaneously. The cooker sits on the stove with a gap of about 12 mm
> between the burning briquette and the bottom of the cooker pot.  The cooker
> and the stove are together enclosed in a vertical stainless steel sleeve,
> about 29 cm tall and 19 cm wide.  There is thus a gap of about 5 mm between
> the cooker and the sleeve, through which the flue gases pass.
> [Ron Larson] :  We have talked often about the optimality of this 5 mm
> dimension.  Any experimental data?
>     Have you measured the output temperature of the exhaust gases?
>         Same for temperature of the outermost wall?
>     If we knew the weight loss per unit time (presumably higher at first?),
> we could estimate the power output levels.  There are several on the list
> who could do this measurement quickly using their balancing scales.
> 
>  (RWL):  I believe there is much to be learned from your geometry - and hope
> others will try similar geometries.  This is a very high efficiency being
> reported - and possibly is very clean as well - given the high temperatures
> that are likely being achieved because of the honeycomb nature of the
> briquette.
>     (AD - we look forward also to hearing about emissions at some time.
> I'll bet they also look very good.)
> 
> 
>  The top 4 cm of the cooker are not covered by the sleeve, because the
> cooker is provided with two small handles that are attached to the sides of
> the cooker at this height.These handles allow the cooker pot to be lifted
> out of the sleeve.
> The efficiency was tested by the usual water boiling test.  The housewives
> who used the cooker were also astonished by the fuel economy of this stove.
> Using a traditional wood burning cookstove, a housewife would have to use 3
> kg wood to cook the three items mentioned above.
> We have no means of controlling the air flow. We may be able to increase or
> reduce the power output of the stove by using more or less of the fuel.
> Yours A.D.Karve
> [Ron Larson]:
>       Have you tried (or could you try) cooking with two briquettes of
> half-height?
>     Might power level control then be possible by rotating one briquette
> relative to the other?
>     In Johannesburg, the GTZ folk were showing an example of the "punch-out"
> "Turbo" stove from Finland that we have discussed on this list a few times.
> (Incidentally -very nice looking product that comes shipped in a big flat
> (pretty heavy) box.)   It had a very clever air flow control (that I had not
> previously noticed) by rotating one set of holes relative to another.  You
> might be able to do this same with the briquettes to achieve power control.
> 
> AD Thanks and congratulations again - for what I think must be the world
> record.  I believe this is better than my electric range.   Ron
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
> To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; THodson@aol.com <THodson@aol.com>
> Cc: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>; stoves@crest.org
> <stoves@crest.org>
> Date: Saturday, November 23, 2002 8:31 PM
> Subject: RE: Kilns
> 
> 
> A.D
> 
> 1.    Thanks for sending this interesting story on.   Not a permanent
> problem - hopefully, just a new point to add to your educational program.
> Old ideas die hard.
> 
> 
> 2.  What are the dimensions and weight of your briquettes?  (Number making
> up 100 g?)
> 
> 3.  You probably said this earlier - but what is your recommended binder
> formula?
> 
> 4.  You have described your new stove previously, but I think it needs a
> repeat - as 70% is just fantastic.  Congratulations!!
> 
> 5.  I do not recall anyone claiming this high an efficiency value.  I
> believe you have incorporated what we might call a
> "convection-enhancing-sleeve" which is probably key to this high value
> What is the gap width and height you have chosen in the model now in
> production?  What is the method of measurement?
> 
> 6. Do you have any means of controlling air flow and power level of this
> stove design?
> 
> 
> 7. It is becoming more clear all the time that the Ashden award people made
> a wise choice.
> 
> Ron
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A.D. Karve [mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in]
> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 4:20 AM
> To: THodson@aol.com
> Cc: Paul S. Anderson; stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: Kilns
> 
> 
> Dear Tom and Paul,
> I spent the last four days at Phaltan, looking at the charring kilns
> installed by ARTI at various sites.  The operators in most cases are
> unemployed rural youth.  After demonstrating the process to them on our own
> kiln they were provided with a kiln of their own, and they were asked to
> char sugarcane leaves in their own villages.  In all the cases, they had
> unofficial advisers, who had already made charcoal using the traditional
> kilns.  In the traditional process, the biomass to be charred is loaded into
> a kiln and ignited.  One has to regulate the air supply very judiciously in
> order to have the right temperature to cause the biomass to char, but at the
> same time not provide so much oxygen that the biomass burns down completely
> to produce ash.  In our oven and retort model, the biomass to be charred is
> enclosed in barrels and it never comes in contact with oxygen.  We therefore
> keep all the airholes fully open, so that the biomass surrounding the
> barrels burns intensely to pyrolyse the biomass inside the barrels.  Our
> entrepreneurs unfortunately followed the advice of the traditional charcoal
> burners in their villages and contrary to our advice, closed all the air
> vents, resulting in a very slow burn of the biomass surrounding the barrels.
> This not only increased the batch time but also in producing biomass which
> was just roasted and not charred.
> Most of them were totally discouraged, firstly because of low output and
> also because of its poor quality.  The correct process had to be
> demonstrated again at each site. We thought that we had developed a fooproof
> process, but it turned out that we were the fools believing that the
> villagers would easily be able to produce char using our technology. Our
> technology, if correctly employed, would yield about 50 kg char per 8 hour
> shift.
> The char is sold in the form of briquettes. We started out with the
> extrusion process to convert the char into cylindrical briquettes. But in
> the field, there are problems with electric supply (either too low voltage
> or no electricity at all).  So, during my stay at Phaltan we took the
> decision to provide the entrepreneurs with molds to produce the so called
> honeycomb briquettes manually. These briquettes look like mud pies, they
> weigh 100 grams each and each briquette has a set of 13 holes. So when it is
> ignited, the pot is hit by 13 flames. I myself produced these briquettes at
> the rate of one per minute.  Thus by using our mold, a person can produce 50
> kg dry briquettes per day.  If the entire family works on this process, they
> can earn Rs. 250 per day (US$ 5), which is more than what an average
> industrial worker earns in a city.
> We have developed a stove-and-cooker system for using the char briquettes
> most rationally.  Through using a very scientific design, we achieve 70%
> efficiency with our stove-and-cooker. Just 100 grams of briquettes can cook
> rice, beans and vegetables for a family of family.  We tested various
> prototypes and have now given orders to a stainless steel pots manufacturer
> to mass produce this cooker.  We expect to get the first batch of cookers in
> about a fortnight and then see how we can market them.  We shall sell them
> very cheaply (at practically no profit), because the user of a cooker is the
> potential buyer of the briquettes.
> Yours
> Dr.A.D.Karve, President,
> Appropriate Rural Technology Institute
> Pune, India.
> 
> 
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> >

-- 
Harmon Seaver	
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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