Re: Bad form altogether!

[Richard Stanley <rstanley@legacyfound.org>]

....Then, lets standardise the text and font size and color and spacing and length
of the line and....
 but in the meantime, Happy Thanksgiving
/ Richard Stanley

Harmon Seaver wrote:

>    Not only the html and the unchanged subject headings, but why people cannot
> set their mail readers to quote properly is more than I can understand. Every
> mail reader certainly has this ability, and it not only makes the discussions a
> million times more readable, but it also makes replying at least a thousand
> times easier.
>    Why are you folks not doing this? I'm sure a lot of us miss a lot of good
> info simply because it is too difficult to follow who said what. If you set your
> reader to automatically quote when replying, and with the internet standard
> quoting marks -- usually the ">" you see below -- it is then just ever so simple
> to interject your answers and questions into to text and it all is clearly
> delineated as to who says what.
>    And good mail readers such the Mutt I'm using here even ask you each time
> whether you want to quote the message or not and also allow you to set whether
> you want to "top quote" or "bottom quote".
>    It's really hard for me to comprehend why so many people here who obviously
> are technically proficient in many other areas can't seem to figure out how to
> do extremely simple things like set up their mail reader properly.
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 09:24:57AM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> > Dear Tom
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Tom Reed
> > To: Kevin Chisholm ; Ron Larson ; gasification
> > Cc: THodson@aol.com ; Paul S. Anderson ; stoves@crest.org
> > Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 8:54 AM
> > Subject: GAS-L: NOT (Re: Kilns), but CHECK THE TITLE
> >
> >
> > Dear Kevin and all:
> >
> > I suppose Kevin's complaint is justified for some and we should stick to
> > plain text when possible (which is most of the time).
> >
> > (Kevin Said This.)Considering the nuisance caused by HTML, when is it ever
> > justified on these Lists?
> >
> > However, even better would be a resolution on all our parts to use
> > appropriate titles.  We are all guilty of hitting the reply button, changing
> > the subject of the body but not the title.
> >
> > PLEASE CHECK THE TITLE LINE BEFORE SENDING.  We DO archive all this stuff
> > and the archives are unnecessarily cluttered when we ignore the tile line.
> >
> > Dr. Thomas B. Reed
> > 1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
> > tombreed@attbi.com; 303 278 0558 Phone/Fax
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Kevin Chisholm
> > To: Ron Larson
> > Cc: THodson@aol.com ; Paul S. Anderson ; stoves@crest.org
> > Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: Kilns
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron
> >
> > You go to a lot of effort to deal with HTML posts, to enable the reader to
> > understand "who said what."
> >
> > HTML has no redeeming social merit, as far as I can see!! :-)
> >
> > What about if all those posting to the CREST Lists did so in Plain Text? It
> > would make life very simple for all of us?
> >
> > Kindest regards,
> >
> > Kevin Chisholm
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ron Larson
> > To: A.D. Karve
> > Cc: THodson@aol.com ; Paul S. Anderson ; stoves@crest.org
> > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 11:24 AM
> > Subject: RE: Kilns
> >
> >
> > AD
> >
> > See notes below:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: A.D. Karve [mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in]
> > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 2:04 AM
> > To: Ron Larson
> > Cc: THodson@aol.com; Paul S. Anderson; stoves@crest.org
> > Subject: Re: Kilns
> >
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> > we have two types of extruded briquettes. One set has a diameter of about 19
> > to 20 mm and the other has a diameter of about 12 to 13 mm.  However,
> > because of the problematic electrical supply in the rural areas, we have now
> > opted for the honeycomb briquettes, which are made manually, using a mold.
> > The honeycomb briquettes have a diameter of about 12 cm and height of about
> > 3 cm.  Each briquette has 13 vertical holes. Paul Hait wanted to know if we
> > are using the thermal array type of arrangement of briquettes in our stove.
> >
> > [Ron Larson]   For new stoves list members, we should say that Paul Hait
> > developed a charcoal using system in which the "pillow" type briquette was
> > carefully placed vertically in slots and in rows in such a way as to get the
> > radiation from one impinging on another - with good air flow.  I don't
> > recall the percent reduction in charcoal consumption - but it might have
> > been a factor of four or five.  He also used stainless steel (reflective)
> > parts and a clever fold-up design to get higher efficiencies and user
> > convenience.
> >         Paul's question is important in "holey" (or "honeycomb") briquettes,
> > because the same principal of getting good use out of the radiated energy
> > (inside the holes as opposed to going off to be absorbed in something other
> > than the cook pot) helps improve combustion enormously.
> >     In your case, what is the diameter of the 13 vertical holes?
> >     How does this diameter change during a run?
> >     Is there a brittle "ash" skeleton remaining at the end?
> >     How long does a single briquette last?  (presumably one being long
> > enough for cooking the meal you describe)
> >     Could you make one twice as tall to cook for twice as long?  (In a
> > different culture)
> >        Is there a "haybox" effect also? (some cooking after the single
> > charcoal briquette is consumed?)
> >     Could you describe how lighting is achieved?
> >     Approximately how high above the briquette do the flames appear - and
> > how does this distance change during a single cooking?
> >     What are the prices of all of the components of the system - including
> > for a single briquette?
> >     What lifetime do you expect for the charcoal burner?  (presumably the
> > cookpot portion is much longer-lived)
> >     Will this particular pot and shield be available for export to
> > interested members of "stoves"? at what price?
> >
> >
> >
> >   The answer is "no", because with a single honeycomb briquette, no
> > arrangement is possible.  When we were using the cylindrical (extruded)
> > briquettes, be just weighed 100 grams of them and put a single layer of
> > briquettes spread evenly on the grate of the stove.
> > We use grain starch as binder.  The flour fallen on the floor of a flour
> > mill is swept and sold by the mill operator at a price of Rs. 2 per kg
> > (Rs.50 per US$). The cost of the char is Rs. 3 per kg. Because the flour is
> > not costlier than the char, there is no restriction on the quantity of the
> > flour. We boil about 400 g of flower in 1.5 litres of water and mix it
> > thoroughly with 1 kg char to make a dough.  This dough is filled into the
> > briquette mold and the briquettes are dried in the sun
> > [Ron Larson]   Does this mean that you might have a wet mix of about 2.9
> > kg - going to a dry batch of  maybe 1.5 + kg - so this recipe might give
> > 15-20 briquettes - with a raw material cost of about 5 rupees or US 10
> > cents - so one briquette (one meal) has a raw material cost of less than 2/3
> > cent?
> >
> > Our stove is a commercially available charcoal burning stove, made of mild
> > steel sheets. The stove is 11 cm tall. The cooker consists of a stainless
> > steel container, about 21 cm tall and 18 cm wide, closed with a lid, which
> > is not too tight. The gaps between the container and the lid allow steam to
> > escape. Inside the cooker, three cook pots are stacked one on top of the
> > other, so that three things (rice, beans and vegetables) can be cooked
> > simultaneously. The cooker sits on the stove with a gap of about 12 mm
> > between the burning briquette and the bottom of the cooker pot.  The cooker
> > and the stove are together enclosed in a vertical stainless steel sleeve,
> > about 29 cm tall and 19 cm wide.  There is thus a gap of about 5 mm between
> > the cooker and the sleeve, through which the flue gases pass.
> > [Ron Larson] :  We have talked often about the optimality of this 5 mm
> > dimension.  Any experimental data?
> >     Have you measured the output temperature of the exhaust gases?
> >         Same for temperature of the outermost wall?
> >     If we knew the weight loss per unit time (presumably higher at first?),
> > we could estimate the power output levels.  There are several on the list
> > who could do this measurement quickly using their balancing scales.
> >
> >  (RWL):  I believe there is much to be learned from your geometry - and hope
> > others will try similar geometries.  This is a very high efficiency being
> > reported - and possibly is very clean as well - given the high temperatures
> > that are likely being achieved because of the honeycomb nature of the
> > briquette.
> >     (AD - we look forward also to hearing about emissions at some time.
> > I'll bet they also look very good.)
> >
> >
> >  The top 4 cm of the cooker are not covered by the sleeve, because the
> > cooker is provided with two small handles that are attached to the sides of
> > the cooker at this height.These handles allow the cooker pot to be lifted
> > out of the sleeve.
> > The efficiency was tested by the usual water boiling test.  The housewives
> > who used the cooker were also astonished by the fuel economy of this stove.
> > Using a traditional wood burning cookstove, a housewife would have to use 3
> > kg wood to cook the three items mentioned above.
> > We have no means of controlling the air flow. We may be able to increase or
> > reduce the power output of the stove by using more or less of the fuel.
> > Yours A.D.Karve
> > [Ron Larson]:
> >       Have you tried (or could you try) cooking with two briquettes of
> > half-height?
> >     Might power level control then be possible by rotating one briquette
> > relative to the other?
> >     In Johannesburg, the GTZ folk were showing an example of the "punch-out"
> > "Turbo" stove from Finland that we have discussed on this list a few times.
> > (Incidentally -very nice looking product that comes shipped in a big flat
> > (pretty heavy) box.)   It had a very clever air flow control (that I had not
> > previously noticed) by rotating one set of holes relative to another.  You
> > might be able to do this same with the briquettes to achieve power control.
> >
> > AD Thanks and congratulations again - for what I think must be the world
> > record.  I believe this is better than my electric range.   Ron
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
> > To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; THodson@aol.com <THodson@aol.com>
> > Cc: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>; stoves@crest.org
> > <stoves@crest.org>
> > Date: Saturday, November 23, 2002 8:31 PM
> > Subject: RE: Kilns
> >
> >
> > A.D
> >
> > 1.    Thanks for sending this interesting story on.   Not a permanent
> > problem - hopefully, just a new point to add to your educational program.
> > Old ideas die hard.
> >
> >
> > 2.  What are the dimensions and weight of your briquettes?  (Number making
> > up 100 g?)
> >
> > 3.  You probably said this earlier - but what is your recommended binder
> > formula?
> >
> > 4.  You have described your new stove previously, but I think it needs a
> > repeat - as 70% is just fantastic.  Congratulations!!
> >
> > 5.  I do not recall anyone claiming this high an efficiency value.  I
> > believe you have incorporated what we might call a
> > "convection-enhancing-sleeve" which is probably key to this high value
> > What is the gap width and height you have chosen in the model now in
> > production?  What is the method of measurement?
> >
> > 6. Do you have any means of controlling air flow and power level of this
> > stove design?
> >
> >
> > 7. It is becoming more clear all the time that the Ashden award people made
> > a wise choice.
> >
> > Ron
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: A.D. Karve [mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 4:20 AM
> > To: THodson@aol.com
> > Cc: Paul S. Anderson; stoves@crest.org
> > Subject: Re: Kilns
> >
> >
> > Dear Tom and Paul,
> > I spent the last four days at Phaltan, looking at the charring kilns
> > installed by ARTI at various sites.  The operators in most cases are
> > unemployed rural youth.  After demonstrating the process to them on our own
> > kiln they were provided with a kiln of their own, and they were asked to
> > char sugarcane leaves in their own villages.  In all the cases, they had
> > unofficial advisers, who had already made charcoal using the traditional
> > kilns.  In the traditional process, the biomass to be charred is loaded into
> > a kiln and ignited.  One has to regulate the air supply very judiciously in
> > order to have the right temperature to cause the biomass to char, but at the
> > same time not provide so much oxygen that the biomass burns down completely
> > to produce ash.  In our oven and retort model, the biomass to be charred is
> > enclosed in barrels and it never comes in contact with oxygen.  We therefore
> > keep all the airholes fully open, so that the biomass surrounding the
> > barrels burns intensely to pyrolyse the biomass inside the barrels.  Our
> > entrepreneurs unfortunately followed the advice of the traditional charcoal
> > burners in their villages and contrary to our advice, closed all the air
> > vents, resulting in a very slow burn of the biomass surrounding the barrels.
> > This not only increased the batch time but also in producing biomass which
> > was just roasted and not charred.
> > Most of them were totally discouraged, firstly because of low output and
> > also because of its poor quality.  The correct process had to be
> > demonstrated again at each site. We thought that we had developed a fooproof
> > process, but it turned out that we were the fools believing that the
> > villagers would easily be able to produce char using our technology. Our
> > technology, if correctly employed, would yield about 50 kg char per 8 hour
> > shift.
> > The char is sold in the form of briquettes. We started out with the
> > extrusion process to convert the char into cylindrical briquettes. But in
> > the field, there are problems with electric supply (either too low voltage
> > or no electricity at all).  So, during my stay at Phaltan we took the
> > decision to provide the entrepreneurs with molds to produce the so called
> > honeycomb briquettes manually. These briquettes look like mud pies, they
> > weigh 100 grams each and each briquette has a set of 13 holes. So when it is
> > ignited, the pot is hit by 13 flames. I myself produced these briquettes at
> > the rate of one per minute.  Thus by using our mold, a person can produce 50
> > kg dry briquettes per day.  If the entire family works on this process, they
> > can earn Rs. 250 per day (US$ 5), which is more than what an average
> > industrial worker earns in a city.
> > We have developed a stove-and-cooker system for using the char briquettes
> > most rationally.  Through using a very scientific design, we achieve 70%
> > efficiency with our stove-and-cooker. Just 100 grams of briquettes can cook
> > rice, beans and vegetables for a family of family.  We tested various
> > prototypes and have now given orders to a stainless steel pots manufacturer
> > to mass produce this cooker.  We expect to get the first batch of cookers in
> > about a fortnight and then see how we can market them.  We shall sell them
> > very cheaply (at practically no profit), because the user of a cooker is the
> > potential buyer of the briquettes.
> > Yours
> > Dr.A.D.Karve, President,
> > Appropriate Rural Technology Institute
> > Pune, India.
> >
> >
> > Gasification List Moderator:
> > Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation,  tombreed@attbi.com Biomass =
> > Energy Foundation, www.woodgas.com
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> >
> > >
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
> "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the
> majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is
> conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the
> masses."  --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933
>
> "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present
> day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the
> capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if
> possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign
> policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump
> through hoops; the purpose is to facilitate our exploitation of
> resources."
> - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General
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