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Greenbuilding Archive for April 2001
307 messages, last added Tue Nov 26 17:25:16 2002
[Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [GBlist] Zero Energy House on Washington Mall (fwd)


Malcolm: I haven't "ignored" anything and fail to see how your comments
relate to my reply to Mr. Herbert and standard definitions of either Energy
Factor (EF) or Conversion Efficiency for gas, electric & oil water heaters.

    I know source-energy is about 3.2 times that consumed by any electric
water heater, but this fact doesn't enter into the standard definition of
EF. Similarly, gas pipline transmission, compression & decompression losses
do not enter into the EF of gas water heaters. Neither do transmission
losses between solar water heaters and their primary source; parked
93-million miles away.

    Are you aware that at least 2 utility field tests showed tankless
electric water heaters could save 41% of both site & primary energy consumed
by a high efficiency tank type water heater. They still demand 3.2 times as
much primary energy; BUT 41% less than even high efficiency tank-type
models. When they are used to backup solar water heaters,  with DHR as
illustrated in Bion Howard's March 2001 story "Designing a "Green Bundle"
Water Heating System" (Energy Design Update, March 2001), the solar array
are permitted to truly conserve energy instead of compensating for standby
loss and energy dumped down the drain.

    Whether you and John D'Angelo like it or not, there were
36,667,000 tank-type water heaters in 1993, according to the AD little
report summarized @ www.oikos.com/gfx/bundles.html. The same report shows
less that .05% were equipped with solar arrays (thermal or PV), yet millions
of tank-type water heaters have been added since 1993. These energy hogs are
well-protected utility cash-cows.

    Contrary to your choice of this phrase: "...your direct fueled
heaters..." I do not sell tankless water heaters nor do I own stock in a
company that does. Melody Lutz & David Seitz do. Melody can verify the
source of the 41% figure. I'm sure David has similar data.

Best Regards,
Carmine
=====================================================
WaterFilm Energy Inc.; P.O. Box 128; Medford, NY 11763
Voice: 631-758-6271 [Fax: 631-758-0438]
Email: gfx-ch@msn.com Web: http://oikos.com/gfx/
=====================================================


----- Original Message -----
From: "malcolm.scott" <malcolm.scott@ntlworld.com>
To: "Dr. Carmine F. Vasile" <gfx-ch@email.msn.com>; "John Herbert"
<john.herbert@kelcroft.com>
Cc: "Don Best" <letters@top.monad.net>; "Rolf Butters"
<rolf.butters@ee.doe.gov>; "Greenbuilding" <greenbuilding@crest.org>;
"Constructive Individuals" <constructive@cwcom.net>; "Donald R. Clem"
<donclem@swinter.com>; "John Lebo" <johnl@doucetteindustries.com>; "Mike
Buckwald" <senator@feinstein.senate.gov>; "Lisa Barnett"
<Lisa.Barnett@ee.doe.gov>; "Del Deletetsky" <rpdeletetsky@ucdavis.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [GBlist] Zero Energy House on Washington Mall (fwd)


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Carmine F. Vasile" <gfx-ch@email.msn.com>
> To: "John Herbert" <john.herbert@kelcroft.com>
> Cc: "Don Best" <letters@top.monad.net>; "Rolf Butters"
> <rolf.butters@ee.doe.gov>; "Greenbuilding" <greenbuilding@crest.org>;
> "Constructive Individuals" <constructive@cwcom.net>; "Donald R. Clem"
> <donclem@swinter.com>; "John Lebo" <johnl@doucetteindustries.com>; "Mike
> Buckwald" <senator@feinstein.senate.gov>; "Lisa Barnett"
> <Lisa.Barnett@ee.doe.gov>; "Del Deletetsky" <rpdeletetsky@ucdavis.edu>
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 1:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [GBlist] Zero Energy House on Washington Mall (fwd)
>
>
> > John: Your "2 cents" worth took quite some time to answer. I apologize
for
> > neglecting to give a source for conversion-efficiency.  For simplicity &
> > consistancy, I used conversion-efficiency values used by a NIST (then
NBS)
> > consultant in the DOE Grant Evaluation of our DHR system (GFX),
> > Recommendation No. 382, OERI No. 009925 Dec. 1986.
> >
> >     Contrary to your statements below, the conversion-efficiency for a
> > modern tankless electric water heater, like the Acutemp C-150 with solid
> > state controls, is nearly 100%, with an EF between 0.98 & 1.0 per the
> > Virginia Power funded evaluation summarized @
> www.oikos.com/gfx/tests.html.
> > The Bosch, tankless, pilotless gas water heater, Model WR 400-3KB  has a
> > conversion eficiency of 77%, with an EF of 0.69, according to a May 1999
> > report by Intertek Testing Services. (604-525-3321)
> >
> >     For tank-type water heaters, beloved by new builders & utilities &
> water
> > heater manufacturers, DOE's efficiency standards issued late last year
> are:
> > (a)    0.59, up from 0.54, basic 40-gallon natural gas;
> > (b)    0.90, up from 0.86, basic 50-gallon electric;
> > (c)    0.53, no change for oil. [See "DOE, Industry Squabble Over New
> Water
> > Heater Standards", Energy Design Update (EDU), September 2000]
> >
> >     OPEC wins again!
>
> Again you have ignored the power station inefficiencies.  Electric heaters
> are roughly 30% eff. from conversion of fuel to electricity and are
> therefore far worse than any of your direct fueled heaters, which
themselves
> could be seriously improved with a higher insulation requirement.
> Malcolm.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by REPP/CREST, creator of
> Solstice http://www.crest.org, and BuildingGreen, Inc., publisher of
> Environmental Building News and GreenSpec http://www.BuildingGreen.com
> ______________________________________________________________________
>








______________________________________________________________________
This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by REPP/CREST, creator of
Solstice http://www.crest.org, and BuildingGreen, Inc., publisher of
Environmental Building News and GreenSpec http://www.BuildingGreen.com
______________________________________________________________________