RE: [GBlist] hydrogen/Re: [GBlist] house thoughts

["Ralph Bicknese" <ralph.bicknese@christnerinc.com>]

Ross and others:

I have some questions and comments regarding hydrogen.

First I admit I am very interested in the technology.  I have heard many
sustainable leaders tout its virtues.  But, I am concerned too many people
will think of this as the magic carpet to solve our energy problems.  I see
it as but one component of an overall strategy.

Second, as I understand, the hydrogen atoms must be separated or "cracked"
from the other atoms to make it useful.  The process of cracking out the
hydrogen atoms requires the input of a great deal of energy.  Hydrogen only
seems to offer the "golden" savings if the energy to crack it comes from a
renewable source such as solar or wind energy.

Perhaps others on the list who are more knowledgeable on the subject can
add.

Cheers,
Ralph Bicknese

-----Original Message-----
From: Renewable News Network [mailto:rnn@rnn.com]
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 9:31 AM
To: FUnger@aol.com
Cc: hollandfoley@acadia.net; greenbuilding@crest.org
Subject: [GBlist] hydrogen/Re: [GBlist] house thoughts

Dear Fred,

What you've written is a very positive statement, in many regards.  And
those, who have continued Donella Meadow's work, concur, not only with
the attitude, but with the promising  view of technology, especially if
one defines technology as, most simply, the way we do things.

In David's example of Chiloe, it appears that the technologies are eons
old and everything has come to fit together.  Today, in the US, with our
politics, mass marketing, and media-based public education, we've
developed the habit of leaping to the next new new thing and
unnecessarily throwing out the ancient ecological practices.  We also
tend to abandon last year's vision of the future, just when it gets
interesting in practical terms.

I tend to agree with what you've said, about energy, technology, and
attitude, except the emphasis ought to be less on government and
industry, as things stand, but, rather, on the many individual
innovators, with their new/old ideas -- and the consumers, too, who
are motivated to accept and promote positive and healthy changes.

There is a role for government, but I would question the notion
that a big new government program is going to deliver us from ourselves
and transform the energy landscape overnight.  Having read the fine
print, the hydrogen fuel cell car sounds more like the golden carrot
super efficient refrigerator.  Remember that?  After all the hoopla and
with the incentives exhausted, Westinghouse or GE, or whoever won the
contract, said:  oh, you wanted us the manufacture it?!  We thought the
ten million dollars was just to build a prototype!

Hydrogen could be good, but we're in the "energy too cheap to meter"
phase of its promotion.  If anybody wants to play around with hydrogen,
for real, they can get a tabletop demonstration kit from Paul Warsitz,
and donate it to a High School Science department, in order to
continue to really change things, here and now.

Yours truly,
Ross


On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 FUnger@aol.com wrote:

> Following up on David & Patricia's comments,
>
> It seems that the most important thing many guilt ridden environmentalists
> seem to leave out of the equation is the potential for technology and
human
> ingenuity to improve lives without a negative impact on the environment.
In
> fact, because history is a long story of increased progress and
efficiency,
> the "fair share" that Patricia alludes to has been an ever increasing size
> share of an ever increasing size pie for an ever increasing number of
people
> throughout history. Thankfully, at least so far, our intelligence has
helped
> us avoid all the catastrophic limits predicted by Malthus and his heirs.
>
> Energy is the fundamental driver of human prosperity. If you look at the
> progress in the utilization of energy over the past millennium of so, one
> notes that as we've moved from wood to coal to oil to natural gas as
primary
> energy sources, several major changes have happened at each step.
>
> 1) More useful energy was taken from each unit of fuel (greater
efficiency)
> 2) The carbon byproducts and other nasties associated with utilization has
> dramatically decreased. (far less pollution)
> 3) Peoples lifestyles and comfort have dramatically improved.
>
> The history of energy technology is the history of increasing efficiency,
> increasing decarbonization of the energy system and increasing living
> standards for greater numbers of people. We are about to embark on the
most
> significant technological transformation in history.
>
> Yesterday Energy Secretary Abraham announced what is likely the most
> important goal ever set for government energy policy: moving to a hydrogen
> fuel based economy. Once in place, the hydrogen economy promises vastly
> improved living standards for everyone on the planet. And the various
> processes of converting hydrogen to usable energy all involve some form of
> oxidation and all have as their only resulting byproduct H20, pure water.
>
> I am not arguing that we be irresponsible here, but that we embrace and
work
> hard toward the solutions rather than anguishing under a restrained and
> limited vision of what is possible. We should be strongly supporting
> political initiatives like those announced yesterday. Let's quit guilt
> tripping ourselves and everyone else. We've been blessed with
opportunities
> nobody else in history has ever had. We should endeavor to share those
> opportunities rather than renounce them. Enjoy your computers, stereos and
> the other gifts that are the benefit of a free and prosperous society and
in
> your work try to help create a world where everyone else can enjoy these
> gifts too.
>
> Think about how much wealthier a typical poor family in America is today
> compared to the richest kings of the middle ages: indoor plumbing, hot
> running water, rapid accessible year round transportation, incredible
> education opportunities, modern health care, modern communication, a vast
> array of entertainment on demand through TV, radio and various other
> technologies, fresh fruits and vegetables from around the world year
round,
> modern sanitation and clean water...........the list goes on. Really there
> are only a few ways that a poor person in America today is lacking
compared
> to the kings of old. First is a lack of self esteem and dignity derived
from
> comparison to the greater wealth, comfort and respect enjoyed by most
others
> in our society and compared to the unfounded deference and other perks of
> power that kings got from those considered subservient to them. The other
is
> the freedom from worry relative to their contemporaries. These differences
> are derived relative to their contemporaries however and not to each
other.
> Measured in actual comfort, life span, health, and other meaningful
measures
> of prosperity, America's poor are almost all actually wealthier than the
> wealthiest people alive just a century ago.
>
> Hopefully we can learn from lives such as those David described in Chile
to
> figure out what really matters in our own lives, so that all of us can
live
> the comfortable, meaningful and dignified lives that free modern societies
> are increasingly able to provide for everyone.
>
> Cheerfully waiting for the onslaught,
>
> Fred
___________


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