Re: [GBlist] hydrogen/Re: [GBlist] house thoughts

[Ron Byrd <byrdelc@directcon.net>]

The current input of electrical energy needed to "crack" the hydrogen molecule
from water is 2:1. Then there is the efficiency of the fuel cell. A fuel cell
may seem very efficient at 50-75%, however there is still more loss.

A plan that heard being considered is to set up a series of new dams with hydo
electric generation. This is the least expensive way to generate electricity.
The hydrogen could be compressed and shipped anywhere in the world. Still the
economics are better for good old gasoline. Of course there is the wind which is
centralized. This makes transmission an economical problem for wind. There's not
a lot of water resources in the middle of the USA. I often wonder how all these
huge wind-hydro systems will effect the environment.

It is obvious that the fuel cell will be a major player in the next energy
revolution. It is not obvious how long it will take to make the break though in
cost to make the fuel cell an economical solution. No mater how you look at it
we are economically driven. Find a way for the cost to be reasonable and show
someone how to earn money from it and it will be done.

For the individual that is hoping to gain some independence from fossil fuels a
solar electric system is the best alternative. It is quite, low maintenance,
fixed cost and it works. Best of all we know exactly how well it works! There is
no guessing about the future.

Ralph Bicknese wrote:

> Ross and others:
>
> I have some questions and comments regarding hydrogen.
>
> First I admit I am very interested in the technology.  I have heard many
> sustainable leaders tout its virtues.  But, I am concerned too many people
> will think of this as the magic carpet to solve our energy problems.  I see
> it as but one component of an overall strategy.
>
> Second, as I understand, the hydrogen atoms must be separated or "cracked"
> from the other atoms to make it useful.  The process of cracking out the
> hydrogen atoms requires the input of a great deal of energy.  Hydrogen only
> seems to offer the "golden" savings if the energy to crack it comes from a
> renewable source such as solar or wind energy.
>
> Perhaps others on the list who are more knowledgeable on the subject can
> add.
>
> Cheers,
> Ralph Bicknese
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Renewable News Network [mailto:rnn@rnn.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 9:31 AM
> To: FUnger@aol.com
> Cc: hollandfoley@acadia.net; greenbuilding@crest.org
> Subject: [GBlist] hydrogen/Re: [GBlist] house thoughts
>
> Dear Fred,
>
> What you've written is a very positive statement, in many regards.  And
> those, who have continued Donella Meadow's work, concur, not only with
> the attitude, but with the promising  view of technology, especially if
> one defines technology as, most simply, the way we do things.
>
> In David's example of Chiloe, it appears that the technologies are eons
> old and everything has come to fit together.  Today, in the US, with our
> politics, mass marketing, and media-based public education, we've
> developed the habit of leaping to the next new new thing and
> unnecessarily throwing out the ancient ecological practices.  We also
> tend to abandon last year's vision of the future, just when it gets
> interesting in practical terms.
>
> I tend to agree with what you've said, about energy, technology, and
> attitude, except the emphasis ought to be less on government and
> industry, as things stand, but, rather, on the many individual
> innovators, with their new/old ideas -- and the consumers, too, who
> are motivated to accept and promote positive and healthy changes.
>
> There is a role for government, but I would question the notion
> that a big new government program is going to deliver us from ourselves
> and transform the energy landscape overnight.  Having read the fine
> print, the hydrogen fuel cell car sounds more like the golden carrot
> super efficient refrigerator.  Remember that?  After all the hoopla and
> with the incentives exhausted, Westinghouse or GE, or whoever won the
> contract, said:  oh, you wanted us the manufacture it?!  We thought the
> ten million dollars was just to build a prototype!
>
> Hydrogen could be good, but we're in the "energy too cheap to meter"
> phase of its promotion.  If anybody wants to play around with hydrogen,
> for real, they can get a tabletop demonstration kit from Paul Warsitz,
> and donate it to a High School Science department, in order to
> continue to really change things, here and now.
>
> Yours truly,
> Ross
>
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 FUnger@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Following up on David & Patricia's comments,
> >
> > It seems that the most important thing many guilt ridden environmentalists
> > seem to leave out of the equation is the potential for technology and
> human
> > ingenuity to improve lives without a negative impact on the environment.
> In
> > fact, because history is a long story of increased progress and
> efficiency,
> > the "fair share" that Patricia alludes to has been an ever increasing size
> > share of an ever increasing size pie for an ever increasing number of
> people
> > throughout history. Thankfully, at least so far, our intelligence has
> helped
> > us avoid all the catastrophic limits predicted by Malthus and his heirs.
> >
> > Energy is the fundamental driver of human prosperity. If you look at the
> > progress in the utilization of energy over the past millennium of so, one
> > notes that as we've moved from wood to coal to oil to natural gas as
> primary
> > energy sources, several major changes have happened at each step.
> >
> > 1) More useful energy was taken from each unit of fuel (greater
> efficiency)
> > 2) The carbon byproducts and other nasties associated with utilization has
> > dramatically decreased. (far less pollution)
> > 3) Peoples lifestyles and comfort have dramatically improved.
> >
> > The history of energy technology is the history of increasing efficiency,
> > increasing decarbonization of the energy system and increasing living
> > standards for greater numbers of people. We are about to embark on the
> most
> > significant technological transformation in history.
> >
> > Yesterday Energy Secretary Abraham announced what is likely the most
> > important goal ever set for government energy policy: moving to a hydrogen
> > fuel based economy. Once in place, the hydrogen economy promises vastly
> > improved living standards for everyone on the planet. And the various
> > processes of converting hydrogen to usable energy all involve some form of
> > oxidation and all have as their only resulting byproduct H20, pure water.
> >
> > I am not arguing that we be irresponsible here, but that we embrace and
> work
> > hard toward the solutions rather than anguishing under a restrained and
> > limited vision of what is possible. We should be strongly supporting
> > political initiatives like those announced yesterday. Let's quit guilt
> > tripping ourselves and everyone else. We've been blessed with
> opportunities
> > nobody else in history has ever had. We should endeavor to share those
> > opportunities rather than renounce them. Enjoy your computers, stereos and
> > the other gifts that are the benefit of a free and prosperous society and
> in
> > your work try to help create a world where everyone else can enjoy these
> > gifts too.
> >
> > Think about how much wealthier a typical poor family in America is today
> > compared to the richest kings of the middle ages: indoor plumbing, hot
> > running water, rapid accessible year round transportation, incredible
> > education opportunities, modern health care, modern communication, a vast
> > array of entertainment on demand through TV, radio and various other
> > technologies, fresh fruits and vegetables from around the world year
> round,
> > modern sanitation and clean water...........the list goes on. Really there
> > are only a few ways that a poor person in America today is lacking
> compared
> > to the kings of old. First is a lack of self esteem and dignity derived
> from
> > comparison to the greater wealth, comfort and respect enjoyed by most
> others
> > in our society and compared to the unfounded deference and other perks of
> > power that kings got from those considered subservient to them. The other
> is
> > the freedom from worry relative to their contemporaries. These differences
> > are derived relative to their contemporaries however and not to each
> other.
> > Measured in actual comfort, life span, health, and other meaningful
> measures
> > of prosperity, America's poor are almost all actually wealthier than the
> > wealthiest people alive just a century ago.
> >
> > Hopefully we can learn from lives such as those David described in Chile
> to
> > figure out what really matters in our own lives, so that all of us can
> live
> > the comfortable, meaningful and dignified lives that free modern societies
> > are increasingly able to provide for everyone.
> >
> > Cheerfully waiting for the onslaught,
> >
> > Fred
> ___________
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by REPP/CREST, creator of
> Solstice http://www.crest.org, and BuildingGreen, Inc., publisher of
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> ______________________________________________________________________

--
Ron Byrd
Vice President
Sunstar Precision Energy Corporation
http://www.specbyrd.com
" We turn sunlight into SPEC energy "



______________________________________________________________________
This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by REPP/CREST, creator of
Solstice http://www.crest.org, and BuildingGreen, Inc., publisher of
Environmental Building News and GreenSpec http://www.BuildingGreen.com
______________________________________________________________________