Re: "Worlds Fastest Stove" Contest

["Kevin Chisholm" <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>]

(NOTE: Can we use "plain text" so that we have the little ">" thingies to
tell who said what?

Dear Tom

K: I think we will all be pleasantly surprised at the benificial fallout
from a "Worlds Fastest Stove" contest. I would guess that already the Stove
world is benefiting. Specifically, Crispin thought he had the Worlds Fastest
Stove, when he got his first 3 minute boil. Then when he realized what he
had going for him, he tried again with some improvements and almost cut his
former World Record in half!! As noted, these contests are more like
Research Programs, rather than an attempt to produce a production design.
Once "the light turns on" and the designer can see the importance of a given
variable, it is then a relatively easy matter to reduce it to practicality.

----- Original Message -----
From: Reedtb2@cs.com
To: kchishol@fox.nstn.ca ; stoves@crest.org
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: "Worlds Fastest Stove" Contest


T:Dear Stovers:

Much as I like a contest, I submit that the contests suggested for speed of
water boiling do not move us much closer to CLEAN,

K: OK, when we want to focus on CLEAN, we can stage the "Cleanest Stove
Contest."

T: EFFICIENT, RELEVANT

K: Similarily, with EFFICIENT and RELEVANT contests...

T: cooking for the billion or so ladies of developing countries who don't
have these attributes in their makeshift, poorly designed stoves.  Here's a
few comments.

My wife's electric stove takes --

6.0  minutes to "bottom boil" 1 liter of water
6.5 minutes to "rocking boil" 1 liter of water.

K: That is appropriate for her, in her circumstances, but how many people
don't have electricity? The World needs better biomass stoves, and these
contests could lead to improvements.

T: (17 cm diameter pot with copper bottom (outside, but stainless inside;
1.5 kW spiral electric burner 15 cm in diameter)

I tried boiling 1 l water in the microwave - Much longer than 6 minutes, but
I'll try again.

Our turbo stove takes 5-7 minutes from lighting the tinder with wood chips
or pellets.

K: Your Turbo Stove is great for its intended purpose. However, any of us
who have built stoves are very aware of the huge diference between our
pre-conceived thoughts and the reality of the stove we built. These contests
will be a superb learning experience for any participant.
                                           ~~~~~~~~~~~~
T: Fast boiling really tests the POWER of the heat source and efficiency of
transmission of that power to and THROUGH the pot bottom.

K: The challenge in the Fastest Stove Contest is far more than a question of
only power and heat transfer through the bottom of the pot. This is racing.
Every detail matters. Sorry, but I can't reveal these important factors
here, because Crispin is probably watching!! :-)

T:  **  In the above test you could see the bubbles forming at each ring of
the elements, but it took another 30 seconds to reach rocking boil.  I
suspect an aluminum pan would do much better since the thermal conductivity
of Al is 10 X stainless.

K: It is amazing what we see when we look. I will guess that we will all be
amazed at what we see when we look at the building and operating a fast
stove.

T: For real cooking excess power to drive heat fast to and through the pot
bottom implies difficulty in low power cooking which should occupy 80% of
the cook cycle.

T: Yes we need 1.5 kW efficiently applied to bring water to the boil, but we
equally need 0.1 kW to slow cook the beans.

K: But we are not cooking beans here.... we are racing.

T:  High turndown (low, clean power) is much harder to achieve than high
power!

K: OK... that suggests a "Highest Stove Turndown" contest.

T:   So?  If American housewives were REALLY into speed the stove companies
would meet their needs.

K: These racing stoves are not intended to be used by Housewives. Most
Housewives have (other) priorities. :-)

T: Boiling water is not the sin-qua-non of cooking!  The cook spends much
more time preparing the food and has learned from her mother when to put the
pot on to boil while doing other things.

K: The Stove Contest has absolutely nothing to do with cooking per se
DIRECTLY. However, I am sure that there will indeed be beneficial fallout
from the various stove contests that could elevate the status of the lives
of millions of people.

T: I suggest that all of us stovers (including me) need to do more practical
cooking on a stove we are recommending to developing country cooks.  Vivian
and I have made a few bowls of soup, a few pots of coffee and a loaf of
bread on our turbo stove, but that just cracks the surface.

K: Agreed.

T: There is no doubt that REASONABLE speed of boiling is useful and should
maybe be under 10 minutes/liter.

K: Thats a long time to wait for a cup of tea!! :-)

T:   But when that requirement is met efficiency and low emissions (for
indoor cooking) take over.

K: These Contests are intended to "push the limit" and "expand the envelope"
of stove science. They have no connection at all to "everyday practical
stoves. They are Research tools. They are part of an ultimate solution set.

T: Hate to be a wet blanket.  Kevin's rules are well thought out - for a
contest, but don't contribute much to real world cooking.

K: As you observe, these rules are appropriate for a speed contest. If the
objective was to focus on "real world cooking", then another set of rules
would be proposed.

It is very important to realize that these contests are just that: a
contest. They are supposed to be fun things, mind expanders, research
programs etc. They will hopefully lead to advances in Stove Science. They
are intended for people who want to build things and set fires. They are not
intended to teach Grandma " how to suck eggs," or how to cook eggs faster.

Crispin, how long would you think it would take to explode a can of beer?
:-)

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm



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