Re: Burning ethics

["Kevin Chisholm" <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>]

Dear Richard

You raise some good points.

It is my understanding that anything in the Punlic Domain cannot be
patented.

It is also my understanding that one cannot patent anything that ".... is
obvious to one skilled in the trade..."

Patents are intended to protect ones invention. As a simple example, if you
wrote to the list and said "I am going to win the Worlds Fastest Stove
Contest" (WFSC) and am going to patent my secret way of introducing
secondary air into the top of the combustion chamber" and if I wrote back
saying something like "I was proposing to use nails to punch holes, rather
than drilling them, because the dimple created by the nail creates a trumpet
entry effect, reducing the entry coefficient" then you could not
subsequently patent such a technique for several reasons:
1: This is obvious to me, as someone skilled in the trafe.
2: I articulated the concept before you did
3: By posting to the internet, the concept is in the public Domain

On the other hand, if you were using square holes, this may be patentable,
in that:
1: As someone skilled in the trade, it would not at all be obvious to me
that square holes would give a beneficial effect.
2: Nothing about square holes was released to the Public Domain

I would guess that if I said " Once I built a basket grate from strips of
sheet metal, and the air entry holes were square and I got pretty good
results; why don't you pursue square holes?", then you would not be entitled
to a patent on "square holes", in that it was my idea. If  you refined the
concept, and if you did apply for a patent, then at the very least, I would
think that I would be a co-inventor

Similarily, if you said "I am working on a new process to make charcoal",
and someone said "Why dont you consider using a high pressure process,
because the Law of Mass Action clearly states that with high pressures,
reactions will be driven in the direction of making the least quantity of
gas products", this may jeopardize your patent application if you were
proposing to use high pressures to reduce gas evolution. On the other hand,
this is so obvious to one skilled in the trade, that the mere mention of it
wqould be akin to "teaching ones Grandmother how to suck eggs."

We can learn from Mr Antal. It would appear that he tells about what he is
doing in concept to "stake out a position" and to promote his invention, but
he is very careful not to tell us anything about how he is doing. If one
wants information, then one has to write to his people, and basically sign a
non-disclosure agreement. He is thus taking all reasonable precautions to
keep his developments out of the public Domain.

In summary, it would appear to me that if one is working toward a patent,
then "don't spill your beans" until after you have it well in hand.

It is my feeling that the Stoves list is intended to be more "for the
general betterment of Humanity", rather than for the specific benefit of a
few.  Indeed, in the long run, the Patent System is intended for the general
benefit of humanity also, by ensuring that knowledge is disseminated, rather
than being closely held as "trade secrets". The "pay" for releasing valuable
trade secrets is the potential for Patent Royalties. There are some
extremely competent people who give freely of their knowledge and
experiences to this list, with little or no thought or prospects for direct
compensation. It is clearly unethical and wrong for another to take this
knowledge that was freely given with the intent to benefit Humanity, and
claim a restrictive patent right to it.

Patents are very costly to attain. I understand that a "one country Patent"
will cost about $5000 for processing fees and about $3000 for minimum legal
assistance. A "world patent could cost inthe order of about $100,000 or
more.Apparently about 95% of all patents never reach commercialization....
many are taken out simply for ego purposes, or as a way to prevent others
from attaining a patent..

I would suggest that the Stoves List (or any internet list for that matter)
is "not the place to be" if one is seeking a patent. On the other hand, a
"Prime inventor" could seek out a number of Stoves List Members to work with
him privately, for example, in a "Chat Room" or by personal e-mail, on the
furthering of his concept. The other List Members would agree or disagree to
participate, as long as they felt they would be adequately rewarded for
their efforts. Their reward may be money, or it may simply be a feeling of
satisfaction from having participated in an interesting or important
venture.

I hope this is helpful in addressing the patent question.
Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Stanley" <rstanley@legacyfound.org>
To: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 7:45 AM
Subject: Burning ethics


> Open question to stoves group, on burning Ethics
>
> We are or shortly will be experiencing a crunch in the patent arena.
> These regulations designed to protect one's individual rights are
> awkward in light of the internet's ability to allow immediate and
> widespread information exchange. What part of Pauls device belongs to
> Ron, or Tom Reed, DeanStill:  What about Daniel's contribution or
> Crispin's or Karve's or the recent flash carbonisation technologies
> developed inpart at U Hawaii ? How much of that is, as Daniel suggests,
> traditional knowledge and how much belongs to Elk or others..
>
> We can hardly turn to the legal community here and we have little in the
> USA, land of private ownership and entrepreneurship, to go on.
>
> Do we engage some form of agreement of confidentiality for registrants ?
> Do we leave it all open ? Do we agree to open up the innovations to all
> meembers for their use as best they see fit as long as it serves the
> public good ?  We all no doubt have our individual pet projects with
> which we are going to patent and make our first million. Where and how
> does this interchange affect these individual aspirations.
>
> We can sweep all these unnerving questions under the table but thats
> like the mad politician trying to stop  negative exposure by killing the
> messenger.
>
> What sayest thou, oh body of stovistas ?
>
> Richard Stanley
> holey briquette maker
>
>
>


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