Re: Water as a byproduct of combustion...

["Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>]

Dear Tami:

You always add something new to the discussion ... thanks.

Granted that not all molecules absorb the same, I need to find a table of
total absorbtions for each species.

Puzzled.  Are you saying that additional water vapor (forget clouds for now)
doesn't absorb proportionally to initial amounts?  That water vapor
absorbtion is non-linear at the concentrations in the atmosphere (obviously
becomes non-linear as absorbtion approaches 100%).  Are you saying  that
absorbtion of radiation in one part of the IR spectrum gives different
heating than in another nearby part?  Are you saying that the contribution
of 6-8 Gtons of CO2/yr are significant relative to the absorbtion of the
500,000 Gtons of water vapor in the air?
                                                        ~~~~~~~~~
Then of course there is the long term question of whether we want to avoid
global warming at the risk of the overdue glaciation.  (Typical interglacial
warming - 10,000 years;  we are 12,000 years since last glacier).
                                                        ~~~~~~~~~~
Have you read any of the "Earth's Children" series by Jean Auel, taking
place during  the interglacial period of 25,000-30,000 years ago?  Clan of
the Cave Bear is the best known, but there are three others and a new one
due this month after a hiatus of 15 years.  I got started late reading them
and just finished "The Mamouth Hunters".  Gives one a more global
perspective.

Your pal,                                    TOM REED

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tami Bond" <Tami.Bond@noaa.gov>
To: "Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: Water as a byproduct of combustion...


>
> Tom,
>
> You would have to draw me out... ;-)
>
> > I have long been puzzled by the emphasis on carbon dioxide as a
> > greenhousegas. Water it the primary greenhouse gas...
>
> The Earth's temperature is higher than one would expect without any
> gases in the atmosphere. It's true that water vapor is the primary
> cause. It's also generally accepted that human activity has little
> effect as the major controlling processes are not releases by people
> but the hydrologic cycle. The water vapor we release by burning coal,
> wood or hydrogen doesn't change the concentration of water vapor in the
> atmosphere by much.
>
> Human activity does have an effect on CO2. The processes controlling
> its concentration are uptake by plants (short time scale), uptake by
> ocean (long time scale), weathering of rock (really long time scale) in
> addition to what we dump in.
>
> Isn't the water vapor greenhouse effect swamping any comparable effects
> of CO2? Nope. That's because water vapor absorbs at different
> wavelengths than CO2 does. The wavelengths that water vapor affects are
> closer to saturated-- that is, H2O is already absorbing most of the
> radiation at those wavelengths. If you add more H2O, the effect on
> radiation is fairly small, just because there's not a lot more
> radiation to absorb.
>
> On the other hand, CO2 (and other greenhouse gases) absorbs at
> different wavelengths where there is a nearly open 'window'. A small
> amount can make a large difference. The question of 'climate change'
> involves not what is absorbing the most radiation (water vapor is the
> clear winner) but what is tipping the balance from its previous state
> (other greenhouse gases).
>
> The H2O-vapor wavelengths aren't completely saturated; hence the 'water
> vapor feedback' effect. That is, if/as things get warmer, there ought
> to be more water vapor in the atmosphere, and that will contribute to
> even more warming-- but again, the warming per molecule of H2O is quite
> a bit smaller than warming per molecule CO2.
>
> Yes, Dan! Soil moisture, evaporation, condensation (or at least
> parameterizations thereof) are in the climate models! Modelers have a
> terrible time with convection processes because they are so small
> compared to the modeling grids, but they're working on it. But these
> models are on a very crude scale, maybe okay (or not??) for predicting
> long-term trends, but certainly not with the resolution required for
> daily weather predictions.
>
> Tami
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>



-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
-
Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
http://www.bioenergy2002.org
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm