Re: SB: Re: Smelly earthen floor (OT)

[Athena and Bill Steen <absteen@dakotacom.net>]

It is amazing just how much info is out there or shall we say was out there.
I like your rephrasing of the process to rotting in contrast to fermenting
as it is probably more accurate.  If I assume correctly, fermenting implies
sugar and since straw has little in common with grapes and other substances
capable of producing interesting beverages, I think rotting or breaking down
would be a better choice of terminology.

B...

> From: John Salmen <terrain@shaw.ca>
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 07:05:16 -0700
> To: Barbara Roemer <barbandg@onemain.com>, John Swearingen
> <john@skillful-means.com>, strawbale@crest.org, ArchiLogic@yahoo.ca
> Subject: SB: Re: Smelly earthen floor (OT)
> 
> amazing how little of the culture of building we have retained.  Despite the
> science of building I think we have forgotten more than we will ever learn.
> 
> I'm constantly looking for information on rotting straw (there has to be a
> good side). One of the interesting things about rotting straw is that it
> produces humic acid which in combination with sunlight produces hydrogen
> peroxide - its been used for a while to control algae growth in ponds.  Not
> that much is known about humic acids and how they work - but they are being
> used increasingly for everything from a fertilizer alternative to
> bioremediation. Uv itself is used effectively to kill mold so it was
> interesting to hear of the affect of sunlight on rotting straw - you may
> consider putting in UV lights for a while. You have to be careful around
> molds, it is fairly easy to become sensitized and dead mold spores can be
> just as problematic as live.
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barbara Roemer" <barbandg@onemain.com>
> To: "John Swearingen" <john@skillful-means.com>; "John Salmen"
> <terrain@shaw.ca>; <strawbale@crest.org>; <ArchiLogic@yahoo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 4:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Smelly earthen floor (OT)
> 
> 
>> Many thanks to those on this list, including John, Royce, Rob, John, Kenn,
>> and others, and those on the cob list who responded regarding our smelly
>> floor.  I received lots of good advice, but perhaps of most value is the
>> reminder that it's useful to slow down, consider conditions attendant to
> the
>> problem, and look for the less obvious.  We'll sprinkle on lime, leave the
>> door open, watch the mold to see if the area increases, work on the
>> foundation drainage, and bank on better weather.  (After an 80 degree
> week,
>> we had 6 inches of snow quite suddenly, though temps are rising to normal
>> daytime 50's now.)  Perhaps of interest is some sketchy information I
>> received from Darel Henman on the cob list.
>> 
>> I thought Darel had mentioned that Japanese builders intentionally let
> straw
>> ferment in their floors.  Though the chemistry of it still doesn't make
>> sense to me, he explained further the process of gradually adding straw to
>> the already fermenting straw in cob for use on walls:
>> 
>> "They don't put it in floors.
>> 
>> They use it for daubbing (cob) onto wattle walls.  Why they do this is
>> because they feel that the lignin and pentose come out of the staw
>> fibres and adds more stickiness to the mix and results in a harder
>> resulting wall.   Note also that they don't do this to all of the
>> straw.   They also feel that keeping the soil wet for a long time (up to
>> a year or more for temples), three months average, but at minimum two
>> weeks, is to let the iron in the soil oxydize and to let the organics in
>> the soil float to the top and not used.   For the long soaking period
>> they add the straw in not all at once in several additions.   The reason
>> for this is said to be that the most fermented straws still have small
>> fibres that grab the smaller clay particles and bind them together, and
>> the lesser fermented and larger straw fibres then bind these together
>> and so on until the newest straw added a day or two before application
>> is then to hold all of the largest clumps together.
>> 
>> The Japanese mud masoners also say its important for the straw and soil
>> to get used to each other: they begin to meld together and the soil
>> changes color after soaking for three weeks.  The optimal length of time
>> for soaking the soil prior to use depends on the temperatures, but one
>> rule of thumb is at least until the soil changes color and black mold
>> forms on it (this is the oxidized iron I think or rust from it).
>> 
>> For floors in Japan, from what I read, I hope to see some the end of
>> this month, the (tataki) or tampered floors consisted of
>> 1. a granite soil,
>> 2. lime,
>> 3. water, ( with optional salt or Magnesium-chloride left over from
>> salt making)
>> 
>> These ingrediengs where mixed in a semi-dry mix and then tamped/rammed
>> down to about 50-67% of the before packed level.  This technique was
>> used for entry and kitchen floors and sewer lines. and runs around the
>> house and was in use until about 70 or 80 years ago in the country side.
>> 
>> They used this for some fence walls as well.  Sometimes they would put
>> a vegetable oil in it to aid in water protection, but one has to not
>> over due the oil part.
>> 
>> I was just using their wall daub mixtures as an example of the smell of
>> fermenting rice straws."
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I'd love to hear more on the daub and floor mixes from other Japanese
>> builders.  Again, many thanks for the varied perspectives.
>> 
>> Barbara
>> Nevada City, CA
>> 
> 
> 
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