RE: SB: Re: Smelly earthen floor (OT)

[Jennifer Altenbach <jeliza@unm.edu>]

I think it actually depends on the organisms that are doing the breaking
down and the presence or absence of oxygen.  Fermentation is the process
of converting glucose (a sugar)into energy without using oxygen (some
organisms do this even when oxygen is present, others do it only in the
absence of oxygen, including the yeasts used in beer and wine
making--that's why they put the grape juice and yeast in a sealed cask).
There is glucose in straw, since straw is mostly cellulose, which is a
long and difficult-to-break chain of glucose molecules.  So if there was
something present that could break down cellulose (certain bacteria, I
would guess) then glucose could be available for fermentation.  Bill's
right in that lots of other organisms could contribute to the rotting of
the straw that do not use fermentation, including bacteria, molds and
other fungi, and maybe even some animals. -----Original
-----Original Message-----
From: Athena and Bill Steen [mailto:absteen@dakotacom.net] 
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 8:45 AM
To: John Salmen; Barbara Roemer; John Swearingen; strawbale@crest.org;
ArchiLogic@yahoo.ca
Subject: Re: SB: Re: Smelly earthen floor (OT)

It is amazing just how much info is out there or shall we say was out
there.
I like your rephrasing of the process to rotting in contrast to
fermenting
as it is probably more accurate.  If I assume correctly, fermenting
implies
sugar and since straw has little in common with grapes and other
substances
capable of producing interesting beverages, I think rotting or breaking
down
would be a better choice of terminology.

B...

> From: John Salmen <terrain@shaw.ca>
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 07:05:16 -0700
> To: Barbara Roemer <barbandg@onemain.com>, John Swearingen
> <john@skillful-means.com>, strawbale@crest.org, ArchiLogic@yahoo.ca
> Subject: SB: Re: Smelly earthen floor (OT)
> 
> amazing how little of the culture of building we have retained.
Despite the
> science of building I think we have forgotten more than we will ever
learn.
> 
> I'm constantly looking for information on rotting straw (there has to
be a
> good side). One of the interesting things about rotting straw is that
it
> produces humic acid which in combination with sunlight produces
hydrogen
> peroxide - its been used for a while to control algae growth in ponds.
Not
> that much is known about humic acids and how they work - but they are
being
> used increasingly for everything from a fertilizer alternative to
> bioremediation. Uv itself is used effectively to kill mold so it was
> interesting to hear of the affect of sunlight on rotting straw - you
may
> consider putting in UV lights for a while. You have to be careful
around
> molds, it is fairly easy to become sensitized and dead mold spores can
be
> just as problematic as live.
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barbara Roemer" <barbandg@onemain.com>
> To: "John Swearingen" <john@skillful-means.com>; "John Salmen"
> <terrain@shaw.ca>; <strawbale@crest.org>; <ArchiLogic@yahoo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 4:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Smelly earthen floor (OT)
> 
> 
>> Many thanks to those on this list, including John, Royce, Rob, John,
Kenn,
>> and others, and those on the cob list who responded regarding our
smelly
>> floor.  I received lots of good advice, but perhaps of most value is
the
>> reminder that it's useful to slow down, consider conditions attendant
to
> the
>> problem, and look for the less obvious.  We'll sprinkle on lime,
leave the
>> door open, watch the mold to see if the area increases, work on the
>> foundation drainage, and bank on better weather.  (After an 80 degree
> week,
>> we had 6 inches of snow quite suddenly, though temps are rising to
normal
>> daytime 50's now.)  Perhaps of interest is some sketchy information I
>> received from Darel Henman on the cob list.
>> 
>> I thought Darel had mentioned that Japanese builders intentionally
let
> straw
>> ferment in their floors.  Though the chemistry of it still doesn't
make
>> sense to me, he explained further the process of gradually adding
straw to
>> the already fermenting straw in cob for use on walls:
>> 
>> "They don't put it in floors.
>> 
>> They use it for daubbing (cob) onto wattle walls.  Why they do this
is
>> because they feel that the lignin and pentose come out of the staw
>> fibres and adds more stickiness to the mix and results in a harder
>> resulting wall.   Note also that they don't do this to all of the
>> straw.   They also feel that keeping the soil wet for a long time (up
to
>> a year or more for temples), three months average, but at minimum two
>> weeks, is to let the iron in the soil oxydize and to let the organics
in
>> the soil float to the top and not used.   For the long soaking period
>> they add the straw in not all at once in several additions.   The
reason
>> for this is said to be that the most fermented straws still have
small
>> fibres that grab the smaller clay particles and bind them together,
and
>> the lesser fermented and larger straw fibres then bind these together
>> and so on until the newest straw added a day or two before
application
>> is then to hold all of the largest clumps together.
>> 
>> The Japanese mud masoners also say its important for the straw and
soil
>> to get used to each other: they begin to meld together and the soil
>> changes color after soaking for three weeks.  The optimal length of
time
>> for soaking the soil prior to use depends on the temperatures, but
one
>> rule of thumb is at least until the soil changes color and black mold
>> forms on it (this is the oxidized iron I think or rust from it).
>> 
>> For floors in Japan, from what I read, I hope to see some the end of
>> this month, the (tataki) or tampered floors consisted of
>> 1. a granite soil,
>> 2. lime,
>> 3. water, ( with optional salt or Magnesium-chloride left over from
>> salt making)
>> 
>> These ingrediengs where mixed in a semi-dry mix and then
tamped/rammed
>> down to about 50-67% of the before packed level.  This technique was
>> used for entry and kitchen floors and sewer lines. and runs around
the
>> house and was in use until about 70 or 80 years ago in the country
side.
>> 
>> They used this for some fence walls as well.  Sometimes they would
put
>> a vegetable oil in it to aid in water protection, but one has to not
>> over due the oil part.
>> 
>> I was just using their wall daub mixtures as an example of the smell
of
>> fermenting rice straws."
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I'd love to hear more on the daub and floor mixes from other Japanese
>> builders.  Again, many thanks for the varied perspectives.
>> 
>> Barbara
>> Nevada City, CA
>> 
> 
> 
>
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