SB: Re: Mag Chloride Was: SB: Re: Smelly earthen floor (OT)

[John Salmen <terrain@shaw.ca>]

no its not that expensive but I wasn't sure that was what Bill was referring
to. The foodgrade stuff they make tofu out of might be pricey. Also a bunch
of companies are trying to push magnesium cements as they are a lot better
and less energy intensive than lime based cements but you probably won't see
it in our lifetime, such is the politics of commerce...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Jones" <ldjones@innotech.cnchost.com>
To: "Athena and Bill Steen" <absteen@dakotacom.net>
Cc: "Barbara Roemer" <barbandg@onemain.com>; "John Swearingen"
<john@skillful-means.com>; "John Salmen" <terrain@shaw.ca>;
<strawbale@crest.org>; <ArchiLogic@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:26 PM
Subject: Mag Chloride Was: SB: Re: Smelly earthen floor (OT)


> Bill,
>
> Magnesium Chloride solution is what they're using to keep highways free of
ice in
> various parts of Colorado and other places, now that the use of salt
(Sodium
> Chloride) is being discouraged.  So it can't be that darn expensive.  I
have a
> friend out in Salt Lake City who works for a company that processes salty
water
> from the Great Salt Lake to extract the stuff, then they concentrate it in
large
> evaporation ponds, letting Ol' Sol do the job instead of burning fuel...
>
> If anyone is interested, I'll contact him (it may take a while - I don't
have his
> e-mail) and see wha it's going for...
>
> Leonard Jones
> Littleton, CO
>
>
>
> Athena and Bill Steen wrote:
>
> > I just caught up on this discussion and apparently Barbara has gotten
enough
> > good advice and hopefully it will take care of the problems at hand.
> > However, I thought I would add a few comments to the discussion about
> > Japanese clay work. First of all, the process described below involves
the
> > use of rice straw and it is not certain that the same effects will be
> > achieved with other types of straw.  The other thing is that almost no
one
> > uses that process any more because of the time involved and because the
> > resulting color is very dark and typically needs another finishing
process.
> > I'm not so sure that the term "mold" describes what happens to the soil.
At
> > least from my understanding and observations of clays that we have
stored in
> > a wet condition, it might be more accurately be described as an algal
type
> > of growth.  Also, the rust appearing on the surface of the wall is more
a
> > function of the type of soil used rather than the process of fermenting
> > straw with the soil.  The use of the word "cob" in this case is really a
> > stretch if it is being related to how it is practiced in this country.
The
> > mixes used are much wetter, applied rather thinly in comparison.
Lastly,
> > the tataki floors do not strictly use granite soils.  They also use clay
> > soils in combination with the lime.  Magnesium chloride makes a much
better
> > floor than without it.  It is essentially the same as "nigari" which is
used
> > to make tofu.  However, it is extremely difficult to get hold of at a
price
> > that would make doing a floor out of it a practical option.
> >
> > Bill
> > >
> > > I thought Darel had mentioned that Japanese builders intentionally let
straw
> > > ferment in their floors.  Though the chemistry of it still doesn't
make
> > > sense to me, he explained further the process of gradually adding
straw to
> > > the already fermenting straw in cob for use on walls:
> > >
> > > "They don't put it in floors.
> > >
> > > They use it for daubbing (cob) onto wattle walls.  Why they do this is
> > > because they feel that the lignin and pentose come out of the staw
> > > fibres and adds more stickiness to the mix and results in a harder
> > > resulting wall.   Note also that they don't do this to all of the
> > > straw.   They also feel that keeping the soil wet for a long time (up
to
> > > a year or more for temples), three months average, but at minimum two
> > > weeks, is to let the iron in the soil oxydize and to let the organics
in
> > > the soil float to the top and not used.   For the long soaking period
> > > they add the straw in not all at once in several additions.   The
reason
> > > for this is said to be that the most fermented straws still have small
> > > fibres that grab the smaller clay particles and bind them together,
and
> > > the lesser fermented and larger straw fibres then bind these together
> > > and so on until the newest straw added a day or two before application
> > > is then to hold all of the largest clumps together.
> > >
> > > The Japanese mud masoners also say its important for the straw and
soil
> > > to get used to each other: they begin to meld together and the soil
> > > changes color after soaking for three weeks.  The optimal length of
time
> > > for soaking the soil prior to use depends on the temperatures, but one
> > > rule of thumb is at least until the soil changes color and black mold
> > > forms on it (this is the oxidized iron I think or rust from it).
> > >
> > > For floors in Japan, from what I read, I hope to see some the end of
> > > this month, the (tataki) or tampered floors consisted of
> > > 1. a granite soil,
> > > 2. lime,
> > > 3. water, ( with optional salt or Magnesium-chloride left over from
> > > salt making)
> > >
> > > These ingrediengs where mixed in a semi-dry mix and then tamped/rammed
> > > down to about 50-67% of the before packed level.  This technique was
> > > used for entry and kitchen floors and sewer lines. and runs around the
> > > house and was in use until about 70 or 80 years ago in the country
side.
> > >
> > > They used this for some fence walls as well.  Sometimes they would put
> > > a vegetable oil in it to aid in water protection, but one has to not
> > > over due the oil part.
> > >
> > > I was just using their wall daub mixtures as an example of the smell
of
> > > fermenting rice straws."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'd love to hear more on the daub and floor mixes from other Japanese
> > > builders.  Again, many thanks for the varied perspectives.
> > >
> > > Barbara
> > > Nevada City, CA
> > >
> > >
> >
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