Re: SB: Mag Chloride Was: SB: Re: Smelly earthen floor (OT)

[Athena and Bill Steen <absteen@dakotacom.net>]

Of course I would like to know Leonard...

> From: Leonard Jones <ldjones@innotech.cnchost.com>
> Organization: Innovative Technical Solutions
> Reply-To: ldjones@innotech.cnchost.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:26:47 -0600
> To: Athena and Bill Steen <absteen@dakotacom.net>
> Cc: Barbara Roemer <barbandg@onemain.com>, John Swearingen
> <john@skillful-means.com>, John Salmen <terrain@shaw.ca>, strawbale@crest.org,
> ArchiLogic@yahoo.ca
> Subject: SB: Mag Chloride Was: SB: Re: Smelly earthen floor (OT)
> 
> Bill,
> 
> Magnesium Chloride solution is what they're using to keep highways free of ice
> in
> various parts of Colorado and other places, now that the use of salt (Sodium
> Chloride) is being discouraged.  So it can't be that darn expensive.  I have a
> friend out in Salt Lake City who works for a company that processes salty
> water
> from the Great Salt Lake to extract the stuff, then they concentrate it in
> large
> evaporation ponds, letting Ol' Sol do the job instead of burning fuel...
> 
> If anyone is interested, I'll contact him (it may take a while - I don't have
> his
> e-mail) and see wha it's going for...
> 
> Leonard Jones
> Littleton, CO
> 
> 
> 
> Athena and Bill Steen wrote:
> 
>> I just caught up on this discussion and apparently Barbara has gotten enough
>> good advice and hopefully it will take care of the problems at hand.
>> However, I thought I would add a few comments to the discussion about
>> Japanese clay work. First of all, the process described below involves the
>> use of rice straw and it is not certain that the same effects will be
>> achieved with other types of straw.  The other thing is that almost no one
>> uses that process any more because of the time involved and because the
>> resulting color is very dark and typically needs another finishing process.
>> I'm not so sure that the term "mold" describes what happens to the soil.  At
>> least from my understanding and observations of clays that we have stored in
>> a wet condition, it might be more accurately be described as an algal type
>> of growth.  Also, the rust appearing on the surface of the wall is more a
>> function of the type of soil used rather than the process of fermenting
>> straw with the soil.  The use of the word "cob" in this case is really a
>> stretch if it is being related to how it is practiced in this country.  The
>> mixes used are much wetter, applied rather thinly in comparison.  Lastly,
>> the tataki floors do not strictly use granite soils.  They also use clay
>> soils in combination with the lime.  Magnesium chloride makes a much better
>> floor than without it.  It is essentially the same as "nigari" which is used
>> to make tofu.  However, it is extremely difficult to get hold of at a price
>> that would make doing a floor out of it a practical option.
>> 
>> Bill
>>> 
>>> I thought Darel had mentioned that Japanese builders intentionally let straw
>>> ferment in their floors.  Though the chemistry of it still doesn't make
>>> sense to me, he explained further the process of gradually adding straw to
>>> the already fermenting straw in cob for use on walls:
>>> 
>>> "They don't put it in floors.
>>> 
>>> They use it for daubbing (cob) onto wattle walls.  Why they do this is
>>> because they feel that the lignin and pentose come out of the staw
>>> fibres and adds more stickiness to the mix and results in a harder
>>> resulting wall.   Note also that they don't do this to all of the
>>> straw.   They also feel that keeping the soil wet for a long time (up to
>>> a year or more for temples), three months average, but at minimum two
>>> weeks, is to let the iron in the soil oxydize and to let the organics in
>>> the soil float to the top and not used.   For the long soaking period
>>> they add the straw in not all at once in several additions.   The reason
>>> for this is said to be that the most fermented straws still have small
>>> fibres that grab the smaller clay particles and bind them together, and
>>> the lesser fermented and larger straw fibres then bind these together
>>> and so on until the newest straw added a day or two before application
>>> is then to hold all of the largest clumps together.
>>> 
>>> The Japanese mud masoners also say its important for the straw and soil
>>> to get used to each other: they begin to meld together and the soil
>>> changes color after soaking for three weeks.  The optimal length of time
>>> for soaking the soil prior to use depends on the temperatures, but one
>>> rule of thumb is at least until the soil changes color and black mold
>>> forms on it (this is the oxidized iron I think or rust from it).
>>> 
>>> For floors in Japan, from what I read, I hope to see some the end of
>>> this month, the (tataki) or tampered floors consisted of
>>> 1. a granite soil,
>>> 2. lime,
>>> 3. water, ( with optional salt or Magnesium-chloride left over from
>>> salt making)
>>> 
>>> These ingrediengs where mixed in a semi-dry mix and then tamped/rammed
>>> down to about 50-67% of the before packed level.  This technique was
>>> used for entry and kitchen floors and sewer lines. and runs around the
>>> house and was in use until about 70 or 80 years ago in the country side.
>>> 
>>> They used this for some fence walls as well.  Sometimes they would put
>>> a vegetable oil in it to aid in water protection, but one has to not
>>> over due the oil part.
>>> 
>>> I was just using their wall daub mixtures as an example of the smell of
>>> fermenting rice straws."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I'd love to hear more on the daub and floor mixes from other Japanese
>>> builders.  Again, many thanks for the varied perspectives.
>>> 
>>> Barbara
>>> Nevada City, CA
>>> 
>>> 
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> 
> 
> 
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